SKS rifle

tomo pauk said:

The Soviet round offers some 10% greater muzzle energy when firing from about same barrel length, so their cartridge should be a better choice for LMGs, for example. BTW - seems like the StG-44 was much more controlable in full auto than AK-47 - video.

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Hello Tomo Pauk,
I, like most people, have never fired the Sturmgewehr, but have encountered them a few times at various collector shows. The StG is a much bigger and heavier gun than the AK which would also contribute to the controllability. (I believe the difference is 2-3 pounds.)
Many years ago, my Son did a report and presentation on Assault Rifles. The fact that this subject was even granted approval in an American public school is amazing. We actually found a firing replica at a local gun shop at the time. One of the interesting things we found out was that the StG was really a limited issue weapon. An entire company might be issued this gun and be considered the "assault" force while other companies retained their regular weapons.

- Ivan.

The SKS was before the AK so in my view not concurrent even though a few years between but these were WW2 years. So big changes. It may have been the SKS was more rifle and the AK was more machine gun but the AK was rifle enough to supplant the SKS to the rear. The SKS couldnt play as an assault rifle.

The Basket said:

The SKS was before the AK so in my view not concurrent even though a few years between but these were WW2 years. So big changes. It may have been the SKS was more rifle and the AK was more machine gun but the AK was rifle enough to supplant the SKS to the rear. The SKS couldnt play as an assault rifle.

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Hello The Basket,
Interesting view of events, but that is not really what happened.

The development of the SKS and AK were actually concurrent. The definitive SKS model of 1945 was actually not adopted until 1949 and development of variants of the gun continued after that. What actually happened was that in the end, when both the AK and the full auto variants of the SKS were compared, it was determined that the AK was superior and the further development of the SKS ceased.

- Ivan.

In my view the SKS and AK became concurrent rather by circumstance rather than design. They don't share the same time frames in the early days but eventually did. The SKS is at least 2 years on the AK.

The Basket said:

In my view the SKS and AK became concurrent rather by circumstance rather than design. They don't share the same time frames in the early days but eventually did. The SKS is at least 2 years on the AK.

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Hello The Basket,
Bolotin's book on Soviet small arms is a pretty good reference and by my interpretation of his account does not agree with your view.

- Ivan.

Not sure what you saying. Kalashnikov had prototypes in 1945.
But the AK as we know it doesn't appear until later. Early SKS was tested in 1945 in combat. the prototype of the AK-46 and testing was done in 1946. There is certainy a gap.

The Basket said:

Not sure what you saying. Kalashnikov had prototypes in 1945.
But the AK as we know it doesn't appear until later. Early SKS was tested in 1945 in combat. the prototype of the AK-46 and testing was done in 1946. There is certainy a gap.

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Hello The Basket.
The SKS prototypes in 7.62 x 39 did not appear until 1944. Some were used in field trials at that time and some were used in combat trials in 1945, but development and final acceptance did not finish until 1949. The AK was in internal testing (as AK-1 and AK-2) probably in 1945/46 with a prototype submitted in 1946, but in order for that to have happened, the development of the design and drawings obviously started quite a bit earlier. Simonov had the greater experience and was working from previous autoloading rifles and carbines in other calibers, so it is not a surprise that the SKS-45 ended up in service first.

For what it's worth, it might also be noted that Simonov and Kalashnikov were only two of the many Soviet designers working on assault rifles and carbines using the M1943 cartridge. These two were the most successful but many other designs were submitted.
Among those was the Sudaev assault rifle of 1944 which but for a slightly longer barrel and some differences in the fore end looks almost exactly like the AK.
The point is that at this time, many designers were working concurrently within the same parameters and with the same objectives in mind.

- Ivan.

One thing reading about the SKS and AK is what I can describe as lost in translation or what the Soviets thought a machine gun or assault rifle or carbine was. I kinda can read Russian badly but it helps what I understand I am reading as the AK has been described as allsorts so difficult to pick if it was either an assault rifle or machine gun.

The SKS and AK were different guns for different strokes. Night and day different. Part of a new family of guns. Also involving the RPD as a machine gun and a bolt action rifle in 7.62x39 which unsurprisingly disappeared. SKS was the Mosin replacement and the AK was the PPS replacement. So they were not made to the same specs or chasing the same contract. They were chalk and cheese. The SKS would have been the most numerous rifle in Soviet service across all its military in the 1950s until the appearance of the AKM.

The Basket said:

One thing reading about the SKS and AK is what I can describe as lost in translation or what the Soviets thought a machine gun or assault rifle or carbine was. I kinda can read Russian badly but it helps what I understand I am reading as the AK has been described as allsorts so difficult to pick if it was either an assault rifle or machine gun.

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Hello The Basket,
Just out of curiosity, what are you reading that leads you to this conclusion? I will have to admit that when I read this a few minutes ago, I almost started laughing.
Not laughing AT you, but laughing WITH you.
One of the problems with learning conversational Russian in schools is that the subjects tend to be rather generic and don't generally involve much discussion about firearms or related technical terms. As a consequence, it takes a bit more immersion in the technical documentation to get a feel for terminology. My technical vocabulary and Russian vocabulary in general is pretty poor. Think about how many English language news articles can't get the correct distinction for what is and is NOT an "Assault Rifle".

It took me a few minutes to find this quote from David Bolotin's book:
"Note: The Russian term 'Avtomat' is usually - if misleadingly - translated as 'submachine-gun', which is now usually applied in the West to a weapon firing pistol ammunition. 'Assault rifle' is preferable."

It seems like the term "Avtomat" is somewhere between the Pistolet Pulemyot and "Ruchnoi" Pulemyot and in English the translation should be sub-"Machinegun" rather than "submachine-gun".

The Basket said:

The SKS and AK were different guns for different strokes. Night and day different. Part of a new family of guns. Also involving the RPD as a machine gun and a bolt action rifle in 7.62x39 which unsurprisingly disappeared. SKS was the Mosin replacement and the AK was the PPS replacement. So they were not made to the same specs or chasing the same contract. They were chalk and cheese. The SKS would have been the most numerous rifle in Soviet service across all its military in the 1950s until the appearance of the AKM.

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I believe we are mostly in agreement here. The SKS-45 and AK-47 and others were all being developed at about the same time but with different goals. The SKS was developed from a series of existing rifles and then carbines and other than the caliber change was not a great reach in terms of technology. It was the "backup" plan. Keep in mind though that the work on a replacement for the Mosin-Nagant bolt action had been going since the 1920's with examples from Federov, Simonov, and of course Tokarev with SVT rifles reaching service in pretty good numbers.
The SKS-45 wasn't really the last development of that line either but it turned out to be the last version adopted for service. If Simonov had his way, the "Avtomat" version of his gun would have been the successor to the SKS-45. The selective fire version actually competed against but lost to AK.
FWIW, There also was a Kalashnikov carbine of 1944 which did not continue development after the SKS-45 was adopted. It seemed like everyone was working on at least one or the other or possibly both of these "contracts" at this time.

- Ivan.

Avtomat means automatic to my knowledge and to my understanding. Federov was called avtomat. And this was well before the term assault rifle was used.
The SKS was a carbine but there was also a paratroop model, a carbine of a carbine, Although not sure if this is Chinese or not.

The SKS was to the 10 round carbine spec and so was a separate gun from the avtomat. The avtomat chosen was AS-44 by Sudaev. However Sudaev became gravely ill and died just when the AS-44 was getting started and so the gun died with him. The Sudaev had the usual teething issues of a new rifle but his death meant they were never fixed. Why the AS-44 was dropped is a mystery to me as there must have been other designers on the project but in Soviet practice either the gun was a dog or Sudaev was a big name whose reputation kept him in the game and his death meant other big names took over. By the time the avtomat programme was restarted, the war was over and the panic was over so the avtomat could be given time and space which the SKS didn't have. The SKS was the 10 round carbine winner at this time.

So the AK won its competition in 1947 but only the prototypes and early 1500 guns are actual AK-47s. The SKS won its competition in 1945. And so by 1949 the two rifles were starting mass production. The AK was struggling with stamped receivers issues and the SKS was milled so in Soviet service the SKS would have been more numerous until advent of AKM. Although the AK may have been more numerous as a front line rifle.

The bolt action 7.62x39 is an interesting concept and again signify the forward thinking of the Soviets covering all bases. I assume it was the same concept of the MAS-36 where a cheapo basic rifle is given to rear echelon troops but this was clearly nonsense and so didn't go anywhere. But we can summize the AK and SKS history was not the one planned in 1943. The SKS was a stand alone rifle which was eclipsed by a more modern if slightly less capable gun.

The Basket said:

Avtomat means automatic to my knowledge and to my understanding. Federov was called avtomat. And this was well before the term assault rifle was used.

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Hello The Basket,
I suspect your Russian is probably no better than mine. Perhaps Tomo Pauk has some better insight. I believe he is more fluent than either of us. I tend to read Russian with a dictionary close by which says something about even my non-technical vocabulary.

What do you see as the distinction between the "Avtomat" and "Avtomaticheskaya Vintovka" as in AVS-36?

The Basket said:

The SKS was to the 10 round carbine spec and so was a separate gun from the avtomat.
.....
By the time the avtomat programme was restarted, the war was over and the panic was over so the avtomat could be given time and space which the SKS didn't have. The SKS was the 10 round carbine winner at this time.

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The reason I keep referring to the definitive SKS model as the "SKS-45" is because the term "SKS" is not really unique in the context of this discussion. There were plenty of other models of SKS carbine. There were considerably more than just two models of "Avtomat" in competition at the time and there are photographs of selective fire version of the Tokarev and description of the selective fire SKS.
Even for THE Sudaev assault rifle, there were two distinctly different models that functioned in a radically different manner. The first version was a simple blowback that fired from an open bolt which is somewhat surprising for this caliber. The second version was a locked breech design and reached field trials where it was determined to be too heavy.

The Basket said:

So the AK won its competition in 1947 but only the prototypes and early 1500 guns are actual AK-47s. The SKS won its competition in 1945.

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The dates you have listed are not really correct. The Soviet system for naming a weapon doesn't tend to be the year of final adoption or the winning of a completion. The SKS-45 for example was only reaching field trials in prototype form in 1945 and was not adopted until 1949. It was still being modified up to that point. The AK-47 existed only in prototype form in 1947 and was also not adopted until much later.

The Basket said:

The bolt action 7.62x39 is an interesting concept and again signify the forward thinking of the Soviets covering all bases. I assume it was the same concept of the MAS-36 where a cheapo basic rifle is given to rear echelon troops but this was clearly nonsense and so didn't go anywhere. But we can summize the AK and SKS history was not the one planned in 1943. The SKS was a stand alone rifle which was eclipsed by a more modern if slightly less capable gun.

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I would have to disagree with you here.
The 7.62 x 39, development of which started in 1939 was clearly intended for a hand held selective fire weapon. Otherwise, there would not have been the substantial reduction in ballistics from the 7,62 x 54R. It clearly was an "intermediate" cartridge which was not a substitute for the full power rifle round nor the pistol round but with an emphasis for controllable automatic fire.

I believe the bolt action guns were most likely just a means of having a platform to test and develop a new cartridge, but to be honest, I have never heard of military bolt actions in 7,62 x 39.
Are you thinking this is something like the Spanish FR-8 rifles?

- Ivan.

Avtomat is probably from the fact the AK was a PPS replacement as a machine gun.
Avtomaticheskaya Vintovka means automatic rifle. There is a big difference between ordering a coffee and deciphering 75 year old technical Russian!

45 comes from year of acceptance as the AK was accepted in 47. It means nothing in terms of production or what the final rifle looked like. Just that AK won competition in 47. You will to argue with Stalin if you think the 45 designation is inaccurate so good luck with that.

There was other Avtomat from Bulkin and Dementiev in the same trials in 46 and 47 as was Simonov and Korobov earlier so the AK didn't exist in a vacuum.

The bolt action was part of the 4 part plan which included the Karabin, Avtomat and Pulemyot so it was made into prototype and that's it. I assume the thinking was either training or cheapness or simplicity. But was around at the same time. Daft concept so didn't go anywhere.