Some help with Translation

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by GregP, Feb 6, 2015.

  1. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    Hi everyone,

    I am trying to close in on the complete Tony Woods list of German claims, both East and West. I am down to just a few things I can’t seem to identify. They are few, but no translator seems to be able to
    help so far.

    Apparently there is a German abbreviation that is flzg., and I have seen it in other lists but, to look it up, you must know the word, not the abbreviation. I THINK it means “Bomber,” but that's a guess on my part.

    The list is:
    1. BSch FL 2:
    2. tiefflug:
    3. Kampflzg: Kamp means “Match,” but I don’t see how that relates to the victim’s identity.
    Match Bomber doesn’t mean anything to me.
    4. Stranraer:
    5. Schlachtflgzg.: I think the first part (Schlacht) means “Battle”. Maybe this is a Fairey Battle
    since the best I can come up with is Battle Bomber?
    6. Seal: No clue except probably related to a seaplane (just a guess)?
    7. Seeflzg.: Maybe an observation plane? No clue.

    Does anyone recognize these? If so, I’d appreciate a tip or two here.

    Thanks in advance!

    When I get done, if anyone is interested, I can find a way to get the list posted. I'm doing it in Microsoft Excel, and the file extension will have to be *.xlsx since there are more rows than a *.xls file can support. That means you need Excel 2010 or newer to open it.
     
  2. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    I'm not 100% certain, but the abreviations appear to be as shown below.

    1. Possibly Bomberschule (bomber school) Flieg 2, Flight 2.
    2. Possibly depth flown = range flown.
    3 = Kampflugzeug = warplane.
    4. Probably a Short Stranraer sea plane, a British aircraft, or possibly the town of the same name, depending on context.
    5= Schlachtflugzueg = approximately fighter bomber, or ground attack aircraft.
    7 = Seeflugzeug = sea plane.

    Not quite sure about number 6 without knowing the context.
     
  3. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

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    "flzg" = Flugzeug (Aircraft)
    "Tiefflug" = low level flight or possibly long range, as in deep penetration. Tief means deep.
    Agree with Terry in #3, though I believe this term usually applied to bombers, as opposed to Jagdflugzeug which would be a fighter. Any bomber wing is called a Kampfgeschwader (KG) whereas a fighter wing is a Jagdgeschwader (JG)
    #4, 5, 6, 7 - agree with Terry
     
  4. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    'Tiefflug' means 'low level flight'
    Kampflugzeug - bomber aircraft (like He 111 or Wellington)
    Schlachtflgzg. - ground attack aircraft (like Hs 129 or Il-2)
    Seeflzg. - floatplane

    Flzg. = flugzeug = aircraft
     
  5. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    Thanks guys!
     
  6. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    The flzg. stands for "flugzeug" - aircraft( plane)

    1. ?
    2. tiefflug - hedgehopping ( low pass )
    3. Kampflzg - kampfflugzeug - warplane or fighter machine.
    4. Isn't this the Scottish town at the Irish Sea?
    5. Schlachtflzg - Schlachtflugzeug - attack aircraft ( assault plane ) , also bomber plane.
    6. ?
    7. Seeflzg - Seeflugzeug - sea plane/amphibious plane
     
  7. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    I see there was more of guys helping. :lol:
     
  8. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    #8 GregP, Feb 6, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2015
    I thank you anyway, Wurger. Let me get a but of formatting done and I'll post the file.
     
  9. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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  10. pbehn

    pbehn Well-Known Member

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    schlacht as I understand German is slaughter (as in killing for food), When I worked in Germany they had festivals of Schlacht essen which was various meats sausages and puddings. I presume a Schlacht Aircraft was one hitting a trget that normally didnt fight back, like ground attack.
     
  11. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    I'd say that 'kampfflugzeug' definitively means 'bomber aircraft'. The bomber groups were named 'kampfgruppen', contrary to eg. 'jagdgeschwader' ( 'fighter group' in RAF parlance; 'fighter wing' in USAF parlance). Fighters were always named 'jagdflugzeug', or 'jaeger'.
    Of course, I will accept correction on this matter :)
     
  12. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    OK, here is the fie I wound up with. I added the column titled "Generic Claim" so I could call all the ways they name a victim as the same type. The rest is from Tony Woods data ... though I DID fix the date column. The dates were in 2 or 3 different formats.
     

    Attached Files:

  13. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    yes, I forgot to add the 'Kampflugzeug' would normally mean Bomber aircraft.
    As mentioned, Stranraer could either be the coastal town and port, or the aircraft named after it, depending on context.
     
  14. fubar57

    fubar57 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the file Greg.

    Geo
     
  15. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    You are welcome. I have my own file that is some 66,000 records, but Tony's is very probably better researched. I pieced mine together over many years from multiple sources ... sometimes in different decades and I couldn't find everything I was looking for in the first place.

    The second tab is a basic analysis of the first tab ... but I'm still going to look at numbers versus dates. Like what period in time shows the most Il-2s shot down ... or Spitfires, etc. . Now that I have the data (thanks Njaco!), it might start to get fun when I get the time to mess with it.

    Please, feel free to analyze and post any trends that anyone finds. It's why I attached the file in the first place. I wish it were a vetted file, but I think claims is all we will ever get due to loss of records from war damage.
     
  16. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    As an addition:

    Jadgeschwader (JG) = fighter group (mostly single engine)
    Zerstörergeschwader (ZG) = destroyer group (twin engine like Bf 110 or Me 410)
    Kampfgeschwader (KG) = bomber group
    Stukageschwader (StG) = dive bomber group
    Lehrgeschwader (LG) - demonstation group
    Schlachtgeschwader (SchlG or SG) = ground attack group
    Aufklärungsgruppe (Aufkl.Gr) = reconnaissance group
    Nachtgeschwader (NJG) = Night fighter group
     
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  17. A4K

    A4K Well-Known Member

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    Agree with all on the abbreviations.

    Cheers for posting the document, but it is HUGE! Can you tell me where the comment about the 'Seal' is? Trying to work that one out. (sounds like a Supermarine aircraft name, in the Walrus, Sea otter vein...)
     
  18. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    #18 GregP, Feb 7, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2015
    Seal is in ref row 33,130 and 33,131.

    It is in the column titled Claimed.

    I did a pivot table to get the victories list. Hartmann's total only comes up to 344, Rall's total to 274, and Barkhorn's total only to 242. But there are 1,156 records with no name in them (listed as n.n.), so there are ample records to correspond with the missing victories. I DO have a list of some of their victories with dates, and possibly can match some of them.

    I just don;t have the time right now. There are 8 victories with "Hartmann" as the last name but no first name ... and that would be 352 ... except I don't believe all of these Hartmanns with no first name were in units that Erich served in. Likely as not the "missing" victories are in the 1,156 records with no name attached at all.

    At least this is a better place to stat than I had.

    There was also ONE records with a formula in the name ... and that is because Microsoft Excel will interpret anything with a minus sign (or hyphen) as the first letter as a formula. I went back to the East file, found the record and corrected it in my Excel just now. The first character of the last name was missing and they put in a hyphen.
     
  19. A4K

    A4K Well-Known Member

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  20. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    Thanks!
     
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