Sonderkommando "ELBE"

[Readie]

Ummm...and the motivation for bombing Germany would be?

you know the answer to that as well as I do.
I think you are wrong to portray the German's as victims Mr Ratsel.
John

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Ratsel, stop the ignorant political bullsh!t or else you're going to find your self permanently drifting through cyberspace. This will be my ONLY warning.

AND if there continues to be any direct or implied political rhetoric on this thread, not only will I lock it up but I will delete it off this site!!!!

 

[davparlr]

I don't know about this whole thing. Those bombers were dropping big explosives, and fire bombs, on wives, sons and daughters, and parents. I certainly can see taking even small chances if the bombers can be deterred. Deadly revenge can burn in the heart.

 

[kettbo]

I thought the vid was pretty well made
But yes, the little matter of starting the war in 1939...

 

[stona]

Ratsel needs to read the original call for volunteers,issued to all sorts of units down to training level,to understand that these men were motivated by the normal heady mixture of patriotism,stupidity and bravery. It is disingenuous to suggest that they all expected to survive. It is impossible for us to understand the mentality of a young man raised under the nazi regime and unwise for us to judge his actions through modern eyes. Some of their colleagues were deliberately diving their aircraft into bridges shortly afterwards,no chance of escaping from that scenario.
Perfectly reasonable men can knowingly take huge risks,fully understanding that they will probably not survive. It's almost a definition of bravery. I recently watched a programme about the cockleshell heroes,a perfect illustration of this.
Paddle up the estuary to Bordeaux,one of the most heavily guarded in Europe. Blow up a few blockade runners with limpet mines and then escape by walking to Spain. They knew they had no chance but they still went. The results were sad but inevitable.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Erich]

I knew about the Histories editions of the S. Elbe renditions some 6 months before it was made. Dr. F. M. who was interviewed and I have known him for years asked me some very pointed questions about the channel and their operations, he was very hesitant to work with any TV channel whether US or European as he had been shafted in the past giving his first person account of the aerial engagement in April of 45. Sadly Fritz was correct in his findings. The history channel took into account what THEY wanted to broadcast and did not cover the operations adequately. In fact the channel cut off all the German veterans short in their stories. No word of JG 7 Me 262 operations which were more successful in their ops against B-17's this date. Fritz was very upset bluntly with the way the episode turned out and most probably will not ever be interviewed again.

 

[Siegfried]

Can`t think of one pilot with any brains crashing delibrately into another aircraft delibrately unless there were no options , like your femoral artory was severed or your controls froze its a losers or fanatics game

You do it to save the people in the ground below, the women, children, old people and families being fire bombed. That's mostly what bombers did. Bringing down a bomber and its crew was a worthwhile thing to do and worth taking a risk for because it would save lives of people below and I admire the young men that could do it.

Sonder Kommando Elbe did have a good chance to survive, they were told they had 1 in 10 chance and being young they believed they would be that survivor. In actual chance of a succesfull bailout was actually quite high about 66% I believe.

In most cases they were trying to slice of a tail or chop up and airframe with their propellor. The flaw with the system is that the young men lacked the flight time to get an intercept.

 

[Readie]

I don't know about this whole thing. Those bombers were dropping big explosives, and fire bombs, on wives, sons and daughters, and parents. I certainly can see taking even small chances if the bombers can be deterred. Deadly revenge can burn in the heart.

You are quite right, but please don't forget who bombed who first.
Harris said at the start of the bombing campaign that he was unleashing a whirlwind on Germany.
Harris said that the Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw, and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind.
In February 1945, Harris wrote "I do not personally regard the whole of the remaining cities of Germany as worth the bones of one British Grenadier".

Another aspect to the discussion in this thread
John

 

[pbfoot]

I'm sorry I never realized that these Knights of the Air were so righteous in their cause ..

 

[Erich]

they weren't, in this late war too many of the higher ups were in a big state of denial including Hajo. it was bound to make no difference at all, as i stated JG 7 did much better causing some of the 8th AF groups to go to the B-17 aid while other B-17 groups were exposed and the jets hit them hard.

 

[Sagittario64]

for me, in april 1945, its hard to believe that the luftwaffe was still capable of putting more than 100 planes into a single attack, strange though it was. i keep getting the impression that in april 1945, only speckles of piston fighters and the occasional jet interception was all the luftwaffe was capable of. i mean i know they were low on fuel and resources, but when would their resources completely tap out? i think this massed ramming attack really accelerated the process

 

[stona]

After the Soviets launched what was to be the final offensive in January 1945 there was a reorganisation of defensive operations putting massive emphasis on the Eastern Front.
A Wehrmacht Operations Staff memo dated 19 January 1945 stated that,
"a high degree of forces are to be concentrated for the great decisive battle in the Eastern theatre with the conscious acceptance of the associated serious risk in the Western theatre".
It went on to state,
"The available fuel is to be allocated accordingly".
On 4 March 1945 the fuel situation was so acute that the OKW issued another directive on Luftwaffe operations. This was primarily directed at,JG 2,JG 26,JG 27 and JG 53,the only units with elements still on Reich Defence in the West anyway.
It decreed that apart from operations by the few jet fighter units (different type of fuel),defencive missions against incursions over the Reich by the American and British heavy bombers were now to be halted completely.
The Luftwaffe had been overwhelmed,deprived of resources and defeated. Any meaningful 'Defence of the Reich',in the air,was over. The war may have staggered on for another couple of months but the Luftwaffe didn't really even manage that.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Erich]

and what was silly about this order as it did not apply to the LW Nachtjagd. operated on several missions even over England with Ju 88G's in March of 45.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Elected not to receive PM's...



(P-40K-5 or JägerMörder or Ratsel???)

 

[stona]

and what was silly about this order as it did not apply to the LW Nachtjagd. operated on several missions even over England with Ju 88G's in March of 45.

That's true Erich. There were some other exceptions too but the game was up.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Matt308]

Elected not to receive PM's...



(P-40K-5 or JägerMörder or Ratsel???)

Uh oh... busted. Either three of you wish to come clean?

 

[Siegfried]

You are quite right, but please don't forget who bombed who first.
Harris said at the start of the bombing campaign that he was unleashing a whirlwind on Germany.
John

Lets ask that question. The Luftwaffe bombed Rotterdam on 14th May after 3 days of protracted unfruitfull negotiations that might have succeded apart from a milking for time attitude that took ultimatums to the limit by the Dutch commander and a time zone confusion: The German army had sorounded and beseiged the city but had to desperately keep moving inorder to participate in the Battle of France which threatened to turn the tides against Germany if not rapidly concluded. This was a fight for national survival. The alternative was house to house street fighting and artillery bombardment.

The next night, the 15th, the RAF bombed Munich. The raid had long been planed but British Propganda (which was as extensive as anything Goebels did) caste it as revenge for Rotterdam.

So what is the difference between the Luftwaffe at Guernica and the RAF in the middle east? The mixture of Leninists, Trotskyites and Stalnists had already killed millions in the 20s and again throught the 30s before they started fragging each other; so the fight against global communism certainly had plenty of reason.

The Battle of Britain is normally dated from June 1940 when the Naval base at Portsmouth was targeted.

Harris and the RAF were bombing and maiming Kurdish villages and killing children in the 1920s. Not much changed with the RAF in WW2. They were prepared to attack populations if attacking the actual combatents was too difficult. What desperatly vital interests were needed to protect the British isles there is somewhat puzzling today. In those days I suspect collateral damage was 'racially adjusted' somewhat in the way that a flood in Australia that kills a dozen is more poignent to us than the regular floods of Bangladesh that kill thousands. Basques being bombed by Italian and German airforce with recomendation by Spannish Nationalist forces count more than Kurds in the moral weight of history.

 

[Arossihman]

I think the level of vindictiveness varied from individual to individual. After all, the pilots, on both sides, were just human. I think, though, that it is accurate to say that the vast majority of Luftwaffe pilots were flying not as a way of expressing any love for the Nazi regime, but were merely doing what was required of them by a government that demanded so much.

From what i understand a lot of the regular pilots and soldiers were'nt raving nazi fanatics but just patriotic germans....does'nt excuse a lot but maybe puts it into a different light. Just my opinion.

 

[Edgar Brooks]

Lets ask that question. The Luftwaffe bombed Rotterdam on 14th May after 3 days of protracted unfruitfull negotiations that might have succeded apart from a milking for time attitude that took ultimatums to the limit by the Dutch commander and a time zone confusion.

Strangely enough, experience had shown that German promises couldn't be trusted.

The next night, the 15th, the RAF bombed Munich. The raid had long been planed but British Propganda (which was as extensive as anything Goebels did) caste it as revenge for Rotterdam.

Planning is one thing; execution is something different. The RAF had been banned from bombing Germany, because it was "private property."

So what is the difference between the Luftwaffe at Guernica and the RAF in the middle east?

See below

The Battle of Britain is normally dated from June 1940 when the Naval base at Portsmouth was targeted.

No, it isn't; its official date is July 10th., when attacks in the Channel reached a peak. Until July 25th., the Luftwaffe was banned from flying over England.

Harris and the RAF were bombing and maiming Kurdish villages and killing children in the 1920s. Not much changed with the RAF in WW2.

Ah, Harris, the devil incarnate, who was a not very senior officer at the time, and (ignored by those who wish to make the British into devils, as well) villages were warned, by leaflets, that they were to be bombed, in a few days time, and advising the inhabitants to leave, for their own safety; I don't recall the Germans ever doing something similar.

They were prepared to attack populations if attacking the actual combatents was too difficult. What desperatly vital interests were needed to protect the British isles there is somewhat puzzling today. In those days I suspect collateral damage was 'racially adjusted' somewhat in the way that a flood in Australia that kills a dozen is more poignent to us than the regular floods of Bangladesh that kill thousands. Basques being bombed by Italian and German airforce with recomendation by Spannish Nationalist forces count more than Kurds in the moral weight of history

That's a purely political statement, for which you have no proof. Although it has nothing to do with WWII, disasters in Bangladesh get as much time, on our national programmes, as anything in Australia, remembering, of course, that vast numbers of Australians are descended from British settlers (not all convicts, by the way,) and we have fairly natural concerns about them.

 

[Juha]

Siegfried
a simple question, why Germans troops were fighting in Rotterdam at first place? After all Holland was a peaceful neutral country until Germans sneakly and unprovocatedly attacked it on early morning 10 May 40.

Juha