Sonderkommando "ELBE"

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Juha said:
Siegfried
a simple question, why Germans troops were fighting in Rotterdam at first place? After all Holland was a peaceful neutral country until Germans sneakly and unprovocatedly attacked it on early morning 10 May 40.

Juha
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They were in Holland for the same reason they were in Danemark and Norway. Strategic neccesity particulary that of securing sea routes, iron supplies and preventing springboard British invasions. Without securing these countries the strategic situation was perceived as so seriously against Germany defeat would be inevitable. The invasion of Holland was extremely unpopular in Germany, the German ambassador to Holland apparently cried. Holland was friendly, genuinely neutral and it was possibly the one country that need not have been invaded. Belgium, like France, had taken small terriotory from Germany (malmedy) after WW1 as had Danemark earlier as well so there was possibly some residual resentments. Certainly having a few neutrals that maintained trade routes might have been usefull to the Reichs war efforts.

The geo-strategic situation for Germany, with a hitorically hostile France and a choke point in access to the sea is very poor for Germany.
 
I don't think bringing politics into this or any other aircraft related topic is going to get us anywhere. This forum is all about the aircraft and pilots in my humble opinion.

The politics behind it will never change, what happened, happened, and there were both acts of immense bravery and heroism, as well as terrible acts of cruelty from all sides.War is Hell.
 
Arossihman said:
From what i understand a lot of the regular pilots and soldiers were'nt raving nazi fanatics but just patriotic germans....does'nt excuse a lot but maybe puts it into a different light. Just my opinion.
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That's about it, right or wrong my country kind of thing.

I thoroughly recommend the Johannes Steinhoff book, 'The Final Hours: The Luftwaffe Plot Against Goring' for an insight into this.
The desperation dire position of Germany's true situation denied to the airmen they still had visions of 'the jets used properly' and a 'big blow', big enough to cause an allied pause in operations and so buy Germany time for the wonder-weapons to have effect.
It's quite bizarre......and yet not without logic, given that they could not have known just how perilous Germany's state was.
 
Gixxerman said:
That's about it, right or wrong my country kind of thing.

I thoroughly recommend the Johannes Steinhoff book, 'The Final Hours: The Luftwaffe Plot Against Goring' for an insight into this.
The desperation dire position of Germany's true situation denied to the airmen they still had visions of 'the jets used properly' and a 'big blow', big enough to cause an allied pause in operations and so buy Germany time for the wonder-weapons to have effect.
It's quite bizarre......and yet not without logic, given that they could not have known just how perilous Germany's state was.
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Mr Steinhoff and his friends should have their revolution in 1940,41,42,43. In 45 were just escaping their co responsibilities. His friend, Galland was still believing in the Big Blow even in very late 44!
 
jim said:
Mr Steinhoff and his friends should have their revolution in 1940,41,42,43. In 45 were just escaping their co responsibilities. His friend, Galland was still believing in the Big Blow even in very late 44!
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If you read the book it's even later, into '45.
The one thing I liked throughout that one was it was no whitewash, apology or rewrite.
There is some hindsight (obviously in the foreward) but it might surprise you when (or if) you see it and what he has to say.
 
jim said:
Mr Steinhoff and his friends should have their revolution in 1940,41,42,43. In 45 were just escaping their co responsibilities. His friend, Galland was still believing in the Big Blow even in very late 44!
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That is a crock of sh*t and I can't believe you don't know that.
If anyone wants to discuss their aircraft I'll join in otherwise I'm outa here. If you really know nothing about the structure or politics of the war time Luftwaffe it's probably best to say nothing rather than posting ignorant and innane comments about men who can no longer defend themselves.
Cheers
Steve
 
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stona said:
That is a crock of sh*t and I can't believe you don't know that.
If anyone wants to discuss their aircraft I'll join in otherwise I'm outa here. If you really know nothing about the structure or politics of the war time Luftwaffe it's probably best to say nothing rather than posting ignorant and innane comments about men who can no longer defend themselves.
Cheers
Steve
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Mr Stona
I believe i know something about the structure of the Lw. What stucture prevents a commander to protect his men? To open his mouth IN TIME and without consideration to personal harm ,when seing them being killed in vain ? When seiing them fly obseleted aircrafts and the same time the aviation industry spent its time designing UFO s and the choises of new types was primary of politics ? to be directed in combat by ground leaders with zero capabilities? Why allowed wrong tactics over homeland?Where was the Jeneral der Jagdflieger when Me 262 was decided to be used as a bomber? Why did not resign ? He had good reason. Dear life. Its ok. propably i would have done the same . But what bothers me is that post war they gave the impression that all were Goerings fault and that they were resisting him , and that givem the chance would have managed better. Is there in this board a single person that believes that Big blow would have worked even in mid 44? I dont question their personnal bravery, their terrible wounds speak by themselfs. But it proved that being an ace does not makes you a proper staff officer. In that role performed, at best, average and failed to counter the catastrophic policies of the higher command. some opened their mouths .eg Heinz Baer and was punished. Hartmann opened his mouth in time in post war Luftwaffe and lost its job. These were great officers. Great officers do not need to defend themselfs. Their actions are enough.
I repeat i respect their personnal sacrificies
 
stona said:
That is a crock of sh*t and I can't believe you don't know that.
If anyone wants to discuss their aircraft I'll join in otherwise I'm outa here. If you really know nothing about the structure or politics of the war time Luftwaffe it's probably best to say nothing rather than posting ignorant and innane comments about men who can no longer defend themselves.
Cheers
Steve
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Hey there is no need to be rude.
 
Alte Hase said:
I don't think bringing politics into this or any other aircraft related topic is going to get us anywhere. This forum is all about the aircraft and pilots in my humble opinion.

The politics behind it will never change, what happened, happened, and there were both acts of immense bravery and heroism, as well as terrible acts of cruelty from all sides.War is Hell.
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Agreed, But treading the fine line between a objective discussion and getting a bit polictical is hard.
I remarked a while ago that I believe that WW2 is just under the thin veneer of civilisation in Europe.

One wrong word and it all comes out again and again and again....

John
 
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Erich said:
and what was silly about this order as it did not apply to the LW Nachtjagd. operated on several missions even over England with Ju 88G's in March of 45.
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Hello Eric
maybe because Germany's high command still thought that night fighters can still operate profitably, IIRC 45 usually only the more experienced night fighter crews flew. On the other hand daytime piston engine fighter ops against Western Allied AFs usually produced clearly more losses than accepted claims, so they were not effective way to conduct war. So IMHO continuing of night ops by selected crews and concentrating day ops over the Eastern Front, where there was some hope that they could have some positive influence on outcome was logical policy.

I'll continue the Germany vs its neighbours 1938-40 discussion on WWII in General section, when I'll have spare time.

Juha
 
Hello
Re Jim's post #70
once I partly agree with Jim. IIRC in late summer 42 GS officers at OKH realised that in the long run war was lost if something extraordinary didn't happen. But on battlefields all seemed go well, so IMHO it was especially what happened in Tunisia during the Spring 43 that would have been the first real time for LW unit COs to see the writing on the wall. So the Autumn 43 would have been the earliest time for strong protests by LW fighter leaders. But I agree with Jim that the leaders have also duty towards those they command not only towards the state they serve and towards their superiors.

On Me 262, IMHO the experience with Kommando Nowotny showed that Me 262A-1a was not yet ready for large scale combat deployment, so the 262A-2a episode didn't have a big impact on the use of 262 as a fighter.
 
Like Readie stated, there is a fine line between a objective discussion and getting a bit polictical is hard. Lets stay away from the politics. Nobody can make a rational decision on any member of any airforce in WWII because they weren't there. You don't know the actual climate in which they worked that prevented them from doing something that armchair generals like ourselves would not hesitate to accomplish. We can yak all we want about what should have been done, but I wouldn't begrudge not one of them for actions NOT taken.

Now, how accurate is the book by Adrian Weir on 7 April 1945?
 
Njaco said:
Like Readie stated, there is a fine line between a objective discussion and getting a bit polictical is hard. Lets stay away from the politics. Nobody can make a rational decision on any member of any airforce in WWII because they weren't there. You don't know the actual climate in which they worked that prevented them from doing something that armchair generals like ourselves would not hesitate to accomplish. We can yak all we want about what should have been done, but I wouldn't begrudge not one of them for actions NOT taken.
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Spot on Njaco. We can only read books and speculate. Mind you, we can also look at events with the benefit of hindsight and see how all of them have created the modern world and hopefully learn something along the way.

John
 
Erich said:
I knew about the Histories editions of the S. Elbe renditions some 6 months before it was made. Dr. F. M. who was interviewed and I have known him for years asked me some very pointed questions about the channel and their operations, he was very hesitant to work with any TV channel whether US or European as he had been shafted in the past giving his first person account of the aerial engagement in April of 45. Sadly Fritz was correct in his findings. The history channel took into account what THEY wanted to broadcast and did not cover the operations adequately. In fact the channel cut off all the German veterans short in their stories. No word of JG 7 Me 262 operations which were more successful in their ops against B-17's this date. Fritz was very upset bluntly with the way the episode turned out and most probably will not ever be interviewed again.
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That is some very interesting comments, thanks for posting it.
 
Njaco

the A. Weir book is the most updated work in existence on the Sonder Elbe fiasco, through this work is how I met up with Dr. F. Marktscheffel whose foto is within the text and what a great man he is ! interesting background when he flew with the Nachtjagd breifly
 
Erich said:
I see another thread has gone way OT now with discussion about Holland .................... damn why can't we stay on topic guys ?
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Any discusion of anything military eventually tends to gravitate to issues of strategy, politics and motivation. Military aviation is no different.
 
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