Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
It s the 1st time that i read the jumo 213 f at 2250 ps. I know 2050 ps, the same as jumo 213e.
We should remember that jumo 213 s frequently failed to deliver their promised performance.
Also , most if not all operational d aircrafts ,were built lacking several futures of their design. E.g tje rubber sealing for the engine gap, and decent surface quality. Personally, i doubt that any operational d9 could achieve 700km/h. Although we have reports that individual aircraft were very fast.
Additional the d series was a flawed design. The requirement for the "power egg" , meant extra weight ,not only in the engine installation, but also in the extensions that were required to keep cog. Also the connection between the power egg and the fuselage was terrible resulting in massive speed loss. The 13mm nose guns caused a lot of drag for little hitting power. The take off weight in the later d series was approaching 4500kgr, but still used the same small wing of the Fw190A6, with its elastic deformation at high speed turns. The original tail surfaces were inadequate to handle the more powerful engines. More and more armor and equipment lead to poor power and wing loadings. The annular radiator was a good idea, but poorly executed at least on the d9 model. And of course the ta 152h had the disastrous shortcoming of the low g limit of its wings.
The following quote I found on www.lufwaff-experten.org (http://www.luftwaff-experten.org) :
" The 2240 PS maximum output that is often quoted for the Jumo213A with MW 50 is a bit
of a mystery. My collection of reports from Junkers that date up to the end of the war, never
mention a 2240 PS setting. According to Junkers and Focke-Wulf documents the 2100 PS
SEP was the maximum output for all production D-9s that entered service during WW2."
They had been conversing with Dietmar Hermann. This quote was implied to be his.
I Checked in his book "Long-nose" and Dietmar states on page 153 that the maximum
output of the Jumo 213F was 2,100 PS....(2,071 hp.)
I have no doubt that if the D series could be built with all the futures and improvements that it s consrtuctor intended would be a very decent late war fighter. Historically, due the war situation, as built , offered only mediocre improvement in comparison with the A8 series.Why would you think that the Jumo 213A, Jumo 213E, Jumo 213E1, Jumo 213F and Jumo 213EB all had the same 2050hp performance? They all had different supercharger arrangements and emergency power systems, compression ratios and or fuel grades.
There are photographs of Fw 190D9 with Ta 152 tails (to handle the additional power) that the nice thing about basing the Ta 152 on the Fw 190 it could feed back improvements.
The engine gap problem was caused by two things, 1 tolerances in construction and 2 lack of supply of rubber strips to seal the engine gaps (front and rear) in the absence of well good build tolerances. There were simply aircraft with good tolerances since the Luftwaffe had rejected the rubber engine seal gap solution and wanted proper build tolerances.
Its fairly clear that the Fw 190D9, which was based on the Fw 190A9 wing was being strengthened since wing fuel tanks were being fitted to the Fw 190D13 EB. There seems to have been a plan to increase Fa 190A10 wing area and its likely this wing might have found itself onto the Fw 190D if it persisted.
Jumo 213A (single stage 2 speed supercharger) was the basic bomber engine pressed into service as a fighter engine. It had single stage super charger. In order to increase the power as a fighter it had an increased boost setting installed.
It was a rich mixture setting that raised power from 1750hp->1900hp.
This was followed by a system that used supercharger pressure to pressurise the MW50 tank and blew in MW50 to increase power fruther.
This was followed by mechanical pump that provided the MW50 the power of this unit was usually regarded as 2100hp
The difference between a Me 109G6AM and Me 109G14 as well G6ASM and G14AS was that the G14 had mechanical pump driven MW50 injection.
Dieter Hermann and Anthony Kay both mention that early Jumo 213A had trouble reaching their full power due to supercharger impellor weakness and not achieving the required boost pressure. These versions were not used in combat but were used in evaluation squadrons.
Jumo 213AG (single stage 2 speed supercharger) this unit unit had the single stage two speed supercharger optimised as "boddenladder" ie supercharger to increase power not compensate for speed. This unit achieved 2250hp, nevertheless it had good performance at all altitudes. This unit is associated with the 2240hp often mentioned.
Jumo 213E (two stage intercooled 3 speed supercharger) never saw service as the engine was optimised for C3 fuel and the anticipated shortages of C3 fuel forced the development of the Jumo 213E1, however a version of the Jumo 213E known as the Jumo 213F without the sizeable intercooler (probably housing cooling only)
Jumo 213E1 (two stage intercooled 3 speed supercharger) which could use B4 fuel + MW50 + GM1. Used on Ta 152H and some Ju 88G7, Ju 88S3 and Ju 388 (test)
Jumo 213F (two stage non intercooled 3 speed supercharger) and interim version for the fw 190D13 Used on Fw 190D13. I believe had higher Compression Ratio.
Jumo 213EB (two stage intercooled 3 speed supercharger with a new radiator and intercooler system) intended for both the Fw 190D13 EB and the Ta 152H EB with about 2350hp and very high full throttle altitude.
Ju 213J about 2650hp at 3700 rpm, used 4 valve head
Ju 213S armoured variant for ground attack aircraft.
These might be of interest:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/Performance_Data_on_Fighter_Aircraft.pdf
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/P-51D_roll.jpg
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-38/p-38e-rolling-velocities.jpg
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-38/p-38j-roll.jpg
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/naca868-rollchart.jpg
Probably more to be found at WWII Aircraft Performance
Dear Corsing,
The Fw 190D9 had two different MW50 systems. The first one used supercharger pressure to blow in MW50 and that was referred to as the Oldenburg system it was retrofitted by Luftwaffe personnel. This is the system that achieved 427mph. In December a new system came into use that used a mechanical pump for much greater flow and vaporisation. This one achieved 434-437 mph. It has to be installed in the factory or in the field by Junkers personnel. This is very good performance at low altitude for an aircraft with only a single stage supercharger that essentially was a left over engine from Ju 188 production. Versions which used pure C3 fuel were am little faster than B4+MW50 and a version with the first stage supercharger optimised purely for low level flight was very fast at sea level.
In due course the Jumo 213A probably would have been released for 2.0 ATA boost on C3+MW50 which correspond to about the same power as the Jumo 213EB. This aircraft would have had very good speed and climb at low alttude.
The Fw 190D series would thus become ground attack aircraft while the Ta 152 specialised in fighter to fighter combat. There were plans to equip the Fw 190D with the TSA 2D toss bombing sight. Their small wings giving the Fw 190D great speed but not so much manoeuvrability and climb. The Fw 190D13 EB was clearly faster than a Spitfire F.22 by 20mph. The real competitor for the Spitfire F.22 is the Ta 152 B and H series with its larger wings.
How many of these engines were actually installed in production a/c?
Griffon engines got 25lb boost, an increase from the standard 21lb boost,.
Jumo 213EB Seems to have flown on test with Ta 152H1 because speed charts abound.
Jumo 213EB (two stage intercooled 3 speed supercharger with a new radiator and intercooler system) intended for both the Fw 190D13 EB and the Ta 152H EB with about 2350hp and very high full throttle altitude.
Its fairly clear that the Fw 190D9, which was based on the Fw 190A9 wing was being strengthened since wing fuel tanks were being fitted to the Fw 190D13 EB.
Dear Corsing,
The Fw 190D9 had two different MW50 systems. The first one used supercharger pressure to blow in MW50 and that was referred to as the Oldenburg system it was retrofitted by Luftwaffe personnel. This is the system that achieved 427mph. In December a new system came into use that used a mechanical pump for much greater flow and vaporisation. This one achieved 434-437 mph. It has to be installed in the factory or in the field by Junkers personnel. This is very good performance at low altitude for an aircraft with only a single stage supercharger that essentially was a left over engine from Ju 188 production. Versions which used pure C3 fuel were am little faster than B4+MW50 and a version with the first stage supercharger optimised purely for low level flight was very fast at sea level.
Koopernic,
What is your source for this information. I have surfed the web and my growing library
but have not come across this information yet. This information would be excellent
to add to the aircraft performance library I am entering on excel.
I have checked the following books to date.
Longnose by Deitmar Hermann
German Combat Planes by Ray Wagner & Heinz Nowarra
Warplanes of the Third Reich by William Green
Monogram Close-Up 10 Fw 190D by J. Richard Smith & Eddie J. Creek
Profile Publications No.94 'The Focke-Wulf Fw 190D/Ta 152 by Richard Smith
Thanks ahead of time, Jeff
if the p51h would have made service it would walked both of them
[Citation Needed]if the p51h would have made service it would walked both of them
?Reading before you write is usually a good idea.
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/leistungsdaten-1-10-44.jpgOf which Fw 190 (version) tested is the graph in the NACA868 rollchart?
You know, I use to know for a fact...? But now I believe it was either an Fw 190A-4
or Fw 190A-5/U4.
How much power a Jumo 213A with 2.0 ATA boost on C3+MW50?
The Jumo 213A in the Fw 190 D-9 used only B4 with and without MW 50 in combat.
However I believe that the 2,240 ps that is often quoted may be from the testing
that was done using C3 fuel and higher boosting in the Jumo 213A.
I'd rather think that the Doras with their smaller airframe and better power-to-weight ratio (performance) compared to the Ta 152 would make it more agile to better combat enemy fighters.
The Dora did have a quicker initial roll rate allowing it to get into a banked turn faster.
Are those charts to be seen somewhere?
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/fw190-a8-3jan45.jpg
Did the Ta 152EB have the same radiator as B/C/H?
The "A-Motor mit Bodenlader" and its 2240/2250 PS. Did it deliver better performance stats than the ones that are commonly associated with the Fw 190D-9? If so does anybody know?
How, do you think, would the respective pinnacles of the Spitfire and Fw 190 compare to each? Which would have, if ever, the upper hand in a dogfight? Always thought the D-13 could take on any allied fighter on equal terms. I know one should take game simulations
with a grain of salt but in World of Warplanes the Spitfire Mk.22 is THE late war dogfighter, outperforming most other fighters in every department except in speed, even outrolling the Fw 190D-9 at higher speed. The only advantage the Fw 190D-13 has is its roll rate due to boosted ailerons.There it is said that the only means to achieve parity is to install the Jumo 213 EB. What do you think about it?
Were you originally referring to me or someone else?The topic is Spit 22 and 190 D-13, not "if the P-51H were available". That's the kind of post that sets off the flag-wavers, too.
Were you originally referring to me or someone else?
if the p51h would have made service it would walked both of them
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/leistungsdaten-1-10-44.jpg
Once again, I am aware of the low pressure MW 50 Oldenburg System that was
initially installed into many of the Fw 190D-9s. I am not aware of any other MW
50 system used operationally in the Fw 190D-9 as Koopernic suggested earlier.
But I'm all ears if someone has information.