Spitfire Mk.22 vs. Fw 190D-13

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The following quote I found on www.lufwaff-experten.org (http://www.luftwaff-experten.org) :

" The 2240 PS maximum output that is often quoted for the Jumo213A with MW 50 is a bit
of a mystery. My collection of reports from Junkers that date up to the end of the war, never
mention a 2240 PS setting. According to Junkers and Focke-Wulf documents the 2100 PS
SEP was the maximum output for all production D-9s that entered service during WW2."

They had been conversing with Dietmar Hermann. This quote was implied to be his.

I Checked in his book "Long-nose" and Dietmar states on page 153 that the maximum
output of the Jumo 213F was 2,100 PS....(2,071 hp.)
 

Why would you think that the Jumo 213A, Jumo 213E, Jumo 213E1, Jumo 213F and Jumo 213EB all had the same 2050hp performance? They all had different supercharger arrangements and emergency power systems, compression ratios and or fuel grades.

There are photographs of Fw 190D9 with Ta 152 tails (to handle the additional power) that the nice thing about basing the Ta 152 on the Fw 190 it could feed back improvements.

Most Fw 190D9 had one of the two types of MW50 system by December 1944.

The engine gap problem was caused by two things, 1 tolerances in construction and 2 lack of supply of rubber strips to seal the engine gaps (front and rear) in the absence of well good build tolerances. There were simply aircraft with good tolerances since the Luftwaffe had rejected the rubber engine seal gap solution and wanted proper build tolerances.

Its fairly clear that the Fw 190D9, which was based on the Fw 190A9 wing was being strengthened since wing fuel tanks were being fitted to the Fw 190D13 EB. There seems to have been a plan to increase Fa 190A10 wing area and its likely this wing might have found itself onto the Fw 190D if it persisted.

Jumo 213A (single stage 2 speed supercharger) was the basic bomber engine pressed into service as a fighter engine. It had single stage super charger. In order to increase the power as a fighter it had an increased boost setting installed.
It was a rich mixture setting that raised power from 1750hp->1900hp.
This was followed by a system that used supercharger pressure to pressurise the MW50 tank and blew in MW50 to increase power fruther.
This was followed by mechanical pump that provided the MW50 the power of this unit was usually regarded as 2100hp

The difference between a Me 109G6AM and Me 109G14 as well G6ASM and G14AS was that the G14 had mechanical pump driven MW50 injection.

Dieter Hermann and Anthony Kay both mention that early Jumo 213A had trouble reaching their full power due to supercharger impellor weakness and not achieving the required boost pressure. These versions were not used in combat but were used in evaluation squadrons.

Jumo 213AG (single stage 2 speed supercharger) this unit unit had the single stage two speed supercharger optimised as "boddenladder" ie supercharger to increase power not compensate for speed. This unit achieved 2250hp, nevertheless it had good performance at all altitudes. This unit is associated with the 2240hp often mentioned.

Jumo 213E (two stage intercooled 3 speed supercharger) never saw service as the engine was optimised for C3 fuel and the anticipated shortages of C3 fuel forced the development of the Jumo 213E1, however a version of the Jumo 213E known as the Jumo 213F without the sizeable intercooler (probably housing cooling only)

Jumo 213E1 (two stage intercooled 3 speed supercharger) which could use B4 fuel + MW50 + GM1. Used on Ta 152H and some Ju 88G7, Ju 88S3 and Ju 388 (test)

Jumo 213F (two stage non intercooled 3 speed supercharger) and interim version for the fw 190D13 Used on Fw 190D13. I believe had higher Compression Ratio but required C3 fuel to achieve same power as Jumo 213E1 due to minimal intercooling.

Jumo 213F1 (two stage non intercooled 3 speed supercharger) used a pump to inject MW50 instead of the less reliable supercharger pressurisation test flown on Fw 190D11 and intended for Fw 190D13.

Jumo 213EB (two stage intercooled 3 speed supercharger with a new radiator and intercooler system) intended for both the Fw 190D13 EB and the Ta 152H EB with about 2350hp and very high full throttle altitude.

Ju 213J about 2650hp at 3700 rpm, used 4 valve head, on test bench.

Ju 213S armoured variant for ground attack aircraft.
 
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Seems to be a Jumo 213AG with a boddenladder ie supercharger set to provide optimal low altitude power.
 
I have no doubt that if the D series could be built with all the futures and improvements that it s consrtuctor intended would be a very decent late war fighter. Historically, due the war situation, as built , offered only mediocre improvement in comparison with the A8 series.
The jumo 213 f, should offer somewhat lower take off power than the jumo 213 a due the additional load of the 2 stage supercharger.
 

Of which Fw 190 (version) tested is the graph in the NACA868 rollchart?



How much power a Jumo 213A with 2.0 ATA boost on C3+MW50?



I'd rather think that the Doras with their smaller airframe and better power-to-weight ratio (performance) compared to the Ta 152 would make it more agile to better combat enemy fighters.


How many of these engines were actually installed in production a/c?

Griffon engines got 25lb boost, an increase from the standard 21lb boost,.

Jumo 213EB Seems to have flown on test with Ta 152H1 because speed charts abound.

Are those charts to be seen somewhere?


Jumo 213EB (two stage intercooled 3 speed supercharger with a new radiator and intercooler system) intended for both the Fw 190D13 EB and the Ta 152H EB with about 2350hp and very high full throttle altitude.

Did the Ta 152EB have the same radiator as B/C/H?

The "A-Motor mit Bodenlader" and its 2240/2250 PS. Did it deliver better performance stats than the ones that are commonly associated with the Fw 190D-9? If so does anybody know?
 
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Its fairly clear that the Fw 190D9, which was based on the Fw 190A9 wing was being strengthened since wing fuel tanks were being fitted to the Fw 190D13 EB.

The A-9 was an A-8 with a more powerful engine. The D-9 used the A-8 wing.
 
 
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/leistungsdaten-1-10-44.jpg


Once again, I am aware of the low pressure MW 50 Oldenburg System that was
initially installed into many of the Fw 190D-9s. I am not aware of any other MW
50 system used operationally in the Fw 190D-9 as Koopernic suggested earlier.

But I'm all ears if someone has information.
 

Can not even use World of Warplanes as a bases...Not even replica in the slightest...they try to apply a hint of that (any type frame) particulars aircraft. No way represents.
 
if the p51h would have made service it would walked both of them

For the sake of adding a little information: The 487mph speed associated with the P-51H is not traceable to an aircraft with a tail number or an airframe serial number. It seems to be a brochure speed to promote sales of the P-51. No one has found the flight test this may have come from. The fastest a P-51H ever flew was a NAA at 482mph,. I havent seen proof of that.. This aircraft was stripped down. This usually means no aerials, no bomb racks, not drop tank racks and gun ports sealed over. There are published P-51 authors on this web site that might provide more info.

The F-190 series was splitting into different products: the Fw 190D series, the Ta 152H with long span wings and the Ta 152C with wins intermediate span wings. Any comparisons with late war allied super fighters such as the P-51H, Spitfire F.22, P-47M or N should consider that all three Fw/Ta would be in service and doing different duties. The Fw 190D12/D13 would have extremely good high altitude performance but it would likely not be used to dogfight Spitfire F.22 or P-51 at high altitude. The fact that it was to receive the TSA2D toss bombing sight tells us what it would have been used for. The small wings would give it high speed at low altitude.

The Jumo 213EB engine differed in that the 'radiator', intercooler, engine cooling and oil cooling were integrated in a compact unit. The Jumo 213EB could thus replace the Jumo 213E1 on the Fw Ta 152H1 and also the Jumo 213F1 on the Fw 190D12 and D13. The Ta 152H with this engine is shown on charts being capable of 474mph and on the same chart the Fw 190D12 with the EB engine is shows as doing over 478mph. (its actually of the chart).

The Fw 190D12/D13 R25 apart from the EB engine had bag type tanks in the wings that were to give it a range of 1700km (1080 miles).

I don't think any of these aircraft would have been easy targets for any allied super fighter.
 
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Jagdhund's website was a great source which is unfortunately only available on way back machine:

Dora (archive.org)

"An early Dora with a stock Jumo 213A, without any modifications was not much of an improvement over the the Fw190A-8 except for somewhat better high altitude performance. The first production Dora's soon received a field modification of a non-standard, low pressure, MW-50 installation "Oldenburg system" and a system referred to as "Ladedruckssteigerungs-Rüstatz" which increased power output of the Jumo 213A from 1750 to 1900PS without an additional boosting agent such as MW-50 or GM-1 up until the first of 1945 when production high pressure MW-50 kits, compressor modifications and C3 fuel were prevalent in D-9's. "

Many of the pages and references in his latter site are missing.

Note the difference between a Jumo 213F0 and Jumo 213F1 was that the F1 had a high pressure pump driven MW50 system whereas the F0 had only a supercharger blown low pressure system. Also different are that the F1 (like the E1) has a strengthened supercharger spline since 3rd gear tended to destroy the shaft when engaged on the F0 and E0 engine. Got this from Smith and Creek.

Likewise with the DB605ASM engine on the Me 109G6ASM and the latter DB605 ASB engine on the Me 109G14AS
 

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