Spitfire + Sabre: any facts/opinons?

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by tomo pauk, Sep 12, 2011.

  1. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2008
    Messages:
    7,993
    Likes Received:
    438
    Trophy Points:
    83
    People, was such a combo ever considered, Spitfire with Napier Sabre?
    How do you feel about such a plane, flying from 1943 (so Sabre's bugs are sorted out)?
     
  2. Mustang nut

    Mustang nut Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2011
    Messages:
    200
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    :lol:If it didnt nose over it would be rejected by Supermarine as too ugly:lol:
     
  3. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2008
    Messages:
    7,993
    Likes Received:
    438
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Griffon engined Spits made no nose-overs to speak of, IIRC ;)
    BTW, why ugly?
     
  4. Tartle

    Tartle Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2009
    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Occupation:
    retired design engineer and manager
    Location:
    Cheshire, England
    Who said Sabre's bugs were sorted out by 1943. Devons in his book 'Planning in Practice' talks of the delicacy, in June 1944, of telling Napier of the forecast numbers of engines required to the end of '45 would likely drop.... however the MAP were reluctant to rock the boat as Napier Sabre was still experiencing a high maintenance rate, which resulted in there always being a large stock undergoing or awaiting repair at any one time. Repair capacity was insufficient and slow to build up so new engines were being used to keep Typhoons and Tempests on the air. The MAP were concerned that reduction in orders would have two effects:
    1. lowere morale so Napiers were even slower at tackling issues, and
    2. Typhoons would be grounded just as they were at their operational peak with grouns support in Europe.
    So for me I would go for the Griffon in the Spitfire; technically if we pretend the engine worked then its high altitude performance would have limited the scope of the Spitfire in an interceptor role and although it would have been an exciting aircraft would it have been able to lift extra weapons... certainly it couldn't go faster as the Mcrit on wing prevents this, let alone control reversals etc. Maybe a Spiteful wing would help?
     
  5. Mustang nut

    Mustang nut Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2011
    Messages:
    200
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Put that chin radiator on a spitfire?
     
  6. Ratsel

    Ratsel Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2011
    Messages:
    798
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    ever see the "tropical Spitfire"?
     
  7. Coors9

    Coors9 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2008
    Messages:
    527
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Occupation:
    Machinist
    Location:
    St.john's Newfoundland
    I luv the trop spit, probably my favorite .
     
  8. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    State of the art engine in an outdated airframe. Why would you want such an aircraft?
     
  9. Edgar Brooks

    Edgar Brooks Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2011
    Messages:
    727
    Likes Received:
    41
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Occupation:
    professionally retired
    Location:
    High Wycombe, England (home of the Mosquito)
    A state-of-the-art engine which lasted until 1950, in an outdated airframe, which lasted until 1954; it doesn't really make sense, I agree.
    Edgar
     
  10. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Messages:
    9,769
    Likes Received:
    800
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    retired Firefighter
    Location:
    Central Florida Highlands
    Sabre weighed about 2500lbs. A two stage Griffon weighed about 2075lbs

    and just like the R-2800 thread, what do you use for a prop? The 3 bladed prop on the Early Typhoons was 14 ft in diameter as was the later 4 bladed propeller. You are really going to need a contra rotating prop and/or a big fin to keep it pointed straight.
     
  11. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Just because an airframe remained in operational service until 1954 doesn't mean it is up to date. There are still DC-3 transports in operational service yet I doubt anyone would build new DC-3s powered by modern turbo prop engines.
     
  12. Edgar Brooks

    Edgar Brooks Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2011
    Messages:
    727
    Likes Received:
    41
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Occupation:
    professionally retired
    Location:
    High Wycombe, England (home of the Mosquito)
    The questioner asked about 1943; anyone who contends that the Spitfire airframe was outdated, at that time, really is allowing his anti-British feelings full rein.
    Edgar
     
  13. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    The Spitfire airframe design dates back to 1934. 1935 to 1943 was a period of rapid technical advances both in airframe design and aircraft engine power output.

    British aircraft engineers are not stupid. Why wouldn't they take advantage of the latest airframe technology for their newest aircraft engine?
     
  14. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Messages:
    9,769
    Likes Received:
    800
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    retired Firefighter
    Location:
    Central Florida Highlands
    Some airframes aged better than others. The Spitfire aged pretty well, the 109 didn't age too bad, the P-36/P-40 not quite so well, the MS 406 not at all well (even though variants were built quite late in Switzerland) and so on. Type of construction, airfoil (wing section) and size all figured into it. The Spitfire wing was better for high speed than the Typhoon wing which was several years later. If the Spitfire had NOT been adaptable it would have been dropped from production much like the Hurricane.
     
  15. TheMustangRider

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2008
    Messages:
    340
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    United States
    The Spitfire did not remain a front-line fighter until the end of hostilities for no reason.
    It was a superb aircraft which throughout its career contended pretty well with much newer designs.
     
  16. Edgar Brooks

    Edgar Brooks Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2011
    Messages:
    727
    Likes Received:
    41
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Occupation:
    professionally retired
    Location:
    High Wycombe, England (home of the Mosquito)
    Many people make that basic mistake; the Spitfire prototype was built to 1934 specs, but the production aircraft were built to 16/36DP, dated 28-7-36, incorporating an extra two years of technological and metallurgical advancement.
    The last normal use, for the Spitfire, was with the P.R.XIX, until June, 1957, but the last operational use was in 1963; not bad for an outdated airframe.
    Edgar
     
  17. claidemore

    claidemore Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2008
    Messages:
    682
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    British Columbia, Canada
    What specifically would make the Spitfire airframe outdated? In any year, but particularly in 1943?
     
  18. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Internal fuel capacity too small and it cannot be easily increased. Airframe and narrow track undercarriage not designed for engines producing 2,000+ hp.

    Essentially the same problems as the German Me-109 series. Would these aircraft have remained in mass production to 1945 without the equipment demands of WWII? I doubt it. Both aircraft were state of the art during 1939 but obsolescent by 1945.
     
  19. Marcel

    Marcel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    Messages:
    6,976
    Likes Received:
    570
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Bioinformatician
    Location:
    Dordrecht
    Like this?
    Basler Turbo Conversions, LLCĀ  Basler Turbo 67 Aircraft
     
  20. Ratsel

    Ratsel Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2011
    Messages:
    798
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    everything was obsolete with the advent of the Me262.
     
Loading...

Share This Page