Spitfire V Versus P-40E

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The Spitfire V was a much better air to air fighter than the P-40E; I do not think anyone would dispute that. I don't think anyone would prefer flying P-40E to a Spit V in air to air combat. But even the E model P-40 was a vastly better fighter bomber than any mark of Spitfire, having more range, a larger bombload, built stronger, and being more resistant to ground fire. I even recall one highly experienced WWII/Korea fighter pilot saying he thought the P-40 was a better fighter bomber than the P-51, because you were much less likely to get hit in the nose radiator rather than one on the belly.

But to see them conclude that the P-40E was as good or better than the Spit V below 16,000 ft, including having a higher roll rate is surprising to me.

It is not hard to see why the Kiwis and Aussies were fairly pleased with the P-40 in the Pacific, or that the RAF in Europe kept flying P-40's in the fighter bomber role all the way into 1945.
 
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The P-40 had one of the best roll rates for an American fighter. It didn't turn as well as the P-36 with the radial engine, but it also wasn't a slouch. Being built to a different standard, it was heavier and didn't climb as well as a Spitfire, but this is the first time I have seen a claim that it was as good in a dogfight at 16,000 feet and below.

This goes a long way toward explaining why P-40s in North Africa did well against Bf 109Es. They were fighting much lower than they were in the ETO. I already knew they were fighting lower, but did not suspect they were as good as a Spitfire V at those altitudes. I also am not taking that at face value, but it DOES elevate the P-40 a bit in perceived capabilities.
 
The pilots who flew the "Clipped, Cropped, and Clapped" Spit V reported that it was the hottest thing they ever flew below 10,000 ft. Cropping the supercharger blades enabled full power to be applied at low altitudes and clipping the wingtips improved the roll rate as well as speed. Now, the P-40's were mostly set up for max performance at about 15,000 ft, that being a happy medium with a single stage single speed engine. In contrast, the A-36A had a V-1710 engine set up for max performance at about 5000 ft. Funny that no one ever seemed to try producing an LF P-40; maybe it was already good enough in that regime.

And Fornoff, the famous Grumman test pilot, also said that the P-40 accelerated a lot faster than the F6F.
 
The VVS preferred the Kittyhawk to the Spitfire Vb. It had overboost too.
 
If you're going to pick and choose your Spitfire, then you might was well pick and choose your P-40. I'd try the P-40F or P-40M if you're going to use an LF Spitfire. If I could pick ANY P-40, I'd take an XP-40Q-2/3! The LF Spit might not know what hit him.

Of course, you could also choose a Spit XIV. So, we might as well just let the Mk.V and the P-40E go and accept the existing report ... maybe. Perhaps there is another report on comparative combat between two different models of Spitfire / P-40. I haven't heard of THIS one until now ... so maybe there are more?
 

The LF.V was not a new model - just used a revised (low altitude) engine and changed the wing tips for the "clipped" versions.

The LF.IX was the F.IX with the Merlin 66 and it would very much be competitive with the P-40Q.

So how the battle between the LF Spitfire and P-40Q depends on which LF Spitfire.


Of course, you could also choose a Spit XIV.

The XIV would be the closest contemporary Spitfire to the P-40Q, but probably 6 months to a year ahead.



It is an interesting report, showing that the P-40E had difficulty gaining advantage, but could disengage from the fight using superior speed and dive ability.

Certainly the removal of the tropical filter would have evened up the speed and reduced the diving deficit.
 
I believe we have been over this before, the Spitfires the Australians got had Merlin 46 engines and not Merlin 45s. The Merlin 46 had a bigger impeller and worked better at higher altitudes but had around 100hp less than a standard Merlin 45 at lower altitudes. For some reason the Australians also limited the boost on the Merlin 46s to 9lbs.
British at some point in time allowed 16lbs boost for the Merlin 46.
 
If you're going to pick and choose your Spitfire, then you might was well pick and choose your P-40.

The test used a MkV fitted with a Merlin 46, an engine specifically designed for high altitude. When the fight started at 20,000ft it was all over in 2 minutes with the Spit owning the P40, but when they started at 16,000 and 13,000ft were the 46 only produced about 1,000hp the fight was more or less equal.
 
Remember........ the P40 F used the Packard built V1650-1 merlin with the 2 speed supercharger and it did NOT perform as good as the Allison version did !!!! The shitfire Mk V and the P40 E matched up in time line, produced at about the same time and this proves why the Brits thought the P40 was the BEST AVAILABLE fighter of the time when they came to North American to see IF North American would build the {40 for them. It also would explain why 14,000 p40's were built in WWII and kept in production right to close to the end of the war. People, especially the brits like to bad mouth the Allison engine but mostly out of embarassment,as for its time it matched and exceeded the merlin in performance especially 20,000 ft and below. the only advantage the merlin 20 had was the second higher speed for the supercharger, realizing too the merlin was only slightly better above 20,000 ft. why the Merlin in the P40 F made NO performance gain over the merlin 20,000 ft and lower. Allison put out more power down low. and the Mustang Mk I & II was faster than the P40 !!!!! These are the performances the Brits like to keep quiet as it destroys all their lies, hype and Bullshit about the Allison engine whether used in the P40 or the early Mustangs !! ! Facts of history coming to light !!!!!
 
This has been around for a while and discussed in several threads. I'd like to point out a couple of things though -
  • The P-40E and Spit V weren't really contemporaries in action, at least not as fighters. P-40E was being phased out mainly for the K in the Pacific (by US, Australian and NZ units) by the time the Spit V showed up. Other P-40E were up-engined to the K standard (V-1710-73). At the end of 1943 they started getting the N. In the Med there were some old P-40D and E still around when the Spit V arrived but they had been relegated to fighter bomber missions, whereas 5 of the 7 US fighter groups in the Theater used P-40 F/ L (merlin engine) and the British and Australians were using P-40K and M, with two squadrons flying the F/L.
  • P-40 units (notably US 49th FG) had better luck against Zeros in the defense of Darwin, though the issues with the Spit V in that action may have been mostly maintenance related.
  • The P-40F/L (or most of them) greatly reduced the longitudinal stability issues mentioned in the report by extending the length of the fuselage about 3 feet.
  • If the P-40E shows up that well against a Spit V, you can assume that the P-40K would have a more substantial advantage down low (it had about 100 more horsepower and could be overboosted to about 300 more hp), and the P-40F /L had more HP + the additional advantage of a much higher critical altitude (about 18,000 ft vs. 12,000 for the P-40E).
  • The Spit could outmaneuver the P-40 but the P-40 was one of the most maneuverable Allied fighters, and could out turn the Bf 109, MC 202, and Yak 7 among others.
  • All versions of the P-40 were reportedly able to disengage from all Axis fighters except the Fw 190 by diving away.
  • Based on combat records and losses on both sides (Mediterranean Air War III and IV) the US P-40 units, flying P-40F and L, did as well as the Spitfire units against German and Italian fighters, and definitely took fewer losses than the P-38 units operating in the same areas.
 
Remember........ the P40 F used the Packard built V1650-1 merlin with the 2 speed supercharger and it did NOT perform as good as the Allison version did !!!!

That isn't true. The merlin powered P-40's performed much better at higher altitude, which was really what mattered especially against German and (German engined) Italian fighters. That is why all the US Units used the P-40F and L in North Africa - 33rd FG, 57th F, 324th FG, 325th FG, and 79th FG, plus the 99th FS (Tuskeegee)


Unless fitted to a turbocharger as in the P-38, the Allison was basically only good up to about 12,000 ft for most models, depending on the gearing. Some were good up to roughly 16,000 ft. Generally speaking the Merlin was better.

The P-40F (with the Merlin XX) had two speed supercharger and therefore two good critical altitudes. The Allison was a little better down very low but the lack of high altitude performance was a major problem (according to the USAAF among others).

Early (Allison engined) Mustangs (P-51A and A-36 dive bomber) had a poor combat record in air to air engagements, notably in China / Burma. Apparently they had an issue with the aileron which was later fixed with the B and C models. THere was only one Ace that flew Allison engined P-51s vs. I don't know how many hundreds with the P-51B and later models. There is absolutely zero doubt that the Merlin engined Mustang performed far better and had a combat record orders of magnitude better than the Allison engined ones. The Allison-Engined P-51s basically had a niche as recon planes.

Nobody is lying about the Allison engine.

You don't need to be so belligerent. The P-40 was good, but the Spitfire was a great fighter. That's just a fact.
 
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Always nice to read someone showing their real appreciation of the Brits wisdom in ordering the Mustang MkI in the first place.
 
Hi Soaringtractor,

Every country in WWII was nationalistic ... ALL of them. The British were no different than we were in that regard. Not sure the British lied about anything, but their flight reports generally limited the Allison to some lower boost than was used in combat while the Merlins in their tests were boosted to what WAS used in combat. That isn't exactly a lie since the test conditions were printed in the reports.

I do not think the P-40F had lower performance than the Allison P-40s. It was very similar in performance to the Allison P-40 at 16,000 feet and below but was slightly better at higher altitude because the Merlin used, a single-stage Merlin 28/219 unit, had a larger supercharger impeller. I would have liked to have seen a 2-stage Merlin P-40 myself.

The Allison was and IS a good engine, but so is the Merlin. Different approaches to the same problem. The Allison was more robust and would hold a tune longer, but there was and IS nothing wrong with the Merlin engine ... it has a solid place in history that is inevitably a bit above the Allison in performance, especially the 2-stage units. I have a friend who overhauls Allisons and I worked with him on Allisons for several years. Great engines that spank Merlins on the tractor-pull circuit.

The biggest problem with the Allison these days is that Rolls-Royce bought the Allison rights and name, and has no interest in promoting it whatsoever. That, unfortunately, is the right of the owner.
 
You don't need to be so belligerent. The P-40 was god, but the Spitfire was a great fighter. That's just a fact.

I think you mean "The P-40 was Zeus but the Spitfire was Jehovah."

The RAF would have lost the BoB if they'd had Hawk 81A's instead of Spitfires. On the other hand, if the RAF had a hundred or so operational Hawk 81A's together with the required pilots they could have proved to be a nasty shock to tired BF-109 pilots straggling in over France watching their Low Fuel Warning Lights instead of their tails.
 


Not very biased are you...
I see you have found your way onto this forum after poisoning thousands of Youtube videos which showed anything British with your foul mouthed remarks and not only bitter but childish attitude. I wouldn't be surprised if you were the most unpopular person on Youtube and that includes your other alias usernames too.
Hopefully the administration on here are wise to what you are really like.

[Note: search Youtube 'soaringtractor'].
 

Ooops my bad, fixed.
 

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