StG.44 at the range.

Discussion in 'WW2 General' started by Soren, Jan 28, 2007.

  1. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Don't know if I ever posted this before, if so then here's a reminder :)

    A nice video of a MP-44 being fired full auto.

    Note: The unusually slow RoF is a result of using purposely underloaded handloads so the gun can last longer.

    http://198.144.2.125/MG42/FULL/WWII guns.wmv
     
  2. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    And before anybody complains.... Yeah I know, its a slooooow download !

    So if you're in need of a nab but don't have any spare time, take it now ! Zzzzz....

    PS: Its worth the wait :)
     
  3. HealzDevo

    HealzDevo Active Member

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    Okay, sounds interesting. Will get at some stage when I get home...
     
  4. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Forgot to mention that there's other weapons being fired on that video as-well, for example the Luger, MG-34, MP-40, a superfast Thompson and ofcourse 007's Walther PPK :)
     
  5. HealzDevo

    HealzDevo Active Member

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    Oh, good a variety of weapons. Love the idea.
     
  6. Soren

    Soren Banned

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  7. Gnomey

    Gnomey World Travelling Doctor
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    Good clip but the music in the second one ruined it (at least for me).
     
  8. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    The second one ?
     
  9. Gnomey

    Gnomey World Travelling Doctor
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    I didn't watch the first one as it took too long to download, so by the second one I mean the youtube video.
     
  10. Soren

    Soren Banned

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  11. Jank

    Jank Member

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    "Note: The unusually slow RoF is a result of using purposely underloaded handloads so the gun can last longer."

    I think that's the normal rate of fire which was about 500 rpm ( 8 or so a second). With automatic, gas operated rifles, the pressure impulse must be kept within a specific range to cycle reliably. The ROF doesn't vary much within the acceptable impulse range. You download ammo to any substantial level and the action won't cycle reliably. On the other end of the spectrum, load it hot and it will cause premature wear on the gun.

    My uncle has an M2 carbine. Now that puppy fires is fast!
     
  12. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    The RoF varies from 500 - 600 rpm, however I doesn't sound like it quite did 500 rpm in that video, perhaps 450. The rounds for the MP-44's are purposely underloaded so they don't wear the gun as much - MP-44's are far and between these days.

    The MP-44 can be fired safely and reliably up to around 750 rpm I would suppose, however achieving this would involve using lighter metals for the reloading mechanism. The MP-40 can be modified quite easily to fire in excess of 800 rpm, but thats a recoil spring mechanism.
     
  13. Jank

    Jank Member

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    Soren, I have seen WWII footage of Germans firing the 44. That appears to be a normal fire rate. It was not a high cyclic rate gun.

    How fast do you think 500 rpm is?

    Again, you can't download ammo to any appreciable degree on gas operated semi-automatic or automatic weapons as the pressure impulse will not cycle the action reliably.

    Try and see what happens if you "underload" cartridges for an M1Garand.

    I know it sort of sounds logical that you would "underload" ammo to extend the life of the gun but a gas operated rifle is just a machine designed to operate at at certain specifications. Also, minimal pressure variations would not have an appreciable effect on rof. That's why, for instance, you could not increase the rof by loading ammunition to a higher pressure either. (9mm sub-machine guns often use ammunition loaded to a higher pressure +P+ than standard handgun fare. If you use regular ammunition, the cyclic rate does not decrease but cycling reliability does.
     
  14. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    500 rpm is just on the slow side, however I have seen footage clearly demonstrating a RoF of 600 rpm.

    And about underloading, yes you can underload ammunition and that will decrease the RoF of the gun, and yes there's a limit to how low you can go - too low and the weapon won't cycle the rounds at all. ~400 rpm is probably the lowest RoF you can reach with the MP-44 before it wont cycle the rounds anymore.

    The normal MV of the MP-44's wartime ammunition, a 8.1g 7.92mm projectile, is 685-690 m/s, today most loads do around 650 m/s with the same weight projectile - this is obviously either because of a difference in powder type or the size of the charge - which would explain the slightly lower RoF.
     
  15. Jank

    Jank Member

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    Soren, with all due respect, you don't know what you are talking about. Loading cartridges to higher pressure will not increase rof to any noticeable degree and "underloading" as you say, will adversely effect rof to any noticeable degree but will effect reliability

    9mm sub-guns like the Cobray M11 (1,100rpm) do not get noticeably faster with +P+ ammo and do not get noticeable slower with plinking ammo that doesn't have the same oomph. And yes, I can state this from personal experience. The M11 is blowback operated BTW, where you would expect a difference in rof if indeed your premise was correct.

    You said, "~400 rpm is probably the lowest RoF you can reach with the MP-44 before it wont cycle the rounds anymore."

    Just where, exactly, do you pull these little pearls of technical opinion from? Do you have some data somewhere that indicates this? Or some data about the MP44 firing safely and reliably up to 750rpm? Is this from personal experience? Do tell.

    "The MP-44 can be fired safely and reliably up to around 750 rpm I would suppose, however achieving this would involve using lighter metals for the reloading mechanism."

    More pearls. Using alloys or other lighter metals to increase the rof? Hmmm. Interesting that no other guns use this principle to increase firing rate. Hey, I have an idea, why not just use a lighter spring or modify the gas port Einstein?

    "this is obviously either because of a difference in powder type or the size of the charge - which would explain the slightly lower RoF."

    Or, and this is a radical idea, it may be a 500 or so rpm gun which is pretty much what the video showed.
     
  16. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Thanks for the insults, I do know what I'm talking about however.

    But I guess you don't know how you achieve a higher RoF with the MG-42 and MG-3 though... You use lighter metals or parts for the recycling mechanism - bolt mass has alot to say. On gas operated weapons gas port modification can be a helping factor increasing RoF as-well, and so can altering the placement of where some of the pressurized gasses escape the barrel into the cylinder and operating rods first as-well. - you usually need to do more than just one of those things at a time ofcourse.

    And despite what you "the almighty gun expert" might say you can increase the RoF by using hotter loads, both for recoil and gas operated firearms. The hotter the load the higher the recoil and the higher pressures you achieve - How reliably the gun will work I can't say...

    So stop playing the expert Jank and come forth with evidence to your claims please.
     
  17. Jank

    Jank Member

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    "So stop playing the expert Jank and come forth with evidence to your claims please."

    Indeed. How rude of me. Obviously the one who makes a claim that draws disagreement is under the obligation to support his assertion. For example, you were the one who opened this thread with the following statement (claim):

    "Note: The unusually slow RoF is a result of using purposely underloaded handloads so the gun can last longer."

    You also claimed:

    "And about underloading, yes you can underload ammunition and that will decrease the RoF of the gun, and yes there's a limit to how low you can go - too low and the weapon won't cycle the rounds at all. ~400 rpm is probably the lowest RoF you can reach with the MP-44 before it wont cycle the rounds anymore."

    I agree. Rather than disagree with your unsupported points, why don't you, the claimant, just put this issue to rest once and for all and as you said, " ...come forth with evidence to your claims please."

    Please provide some evidence that "underloading" (which I understand to mean loading such that the pressure of the round is decreased from that which would be considered standard) will decrease the rate of fire on blowback and gas operated automatic weapons.

    Again, it is my position that pressure variations would not have an appreciable effect on rof and that descreasing pressure to any substantial degree would impede the function of the action.

    It sounds like you are saying that the pressure of a load could cause a variance from 400rpm (as indicated by your opinion as the low side that could be achieved by "underloading") to perhaps 600rpm or more. Going from 400rpm to 600rpm, by the way, represents a 50% increase in rof. 400rpm to 500rpm, a 25% increase in rof.

    Both are Bull.

    I can tell you from having fired hundreds of rounds through a Cobray M11 with both CCI Blazer plinking ammo and Spanish NATO +P+ sub-gun ammo (the pressure differential is on the order of 20-25%) that there was no discernable difference in rate of fire . There was, however, a lot more muzzle flash, rise and more recoil with the hot Spanish ammo.
     
  18. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Jank, first of all I never claimed RoF would vary from 600 - 400 rpm by using different loads alone, but an extra 50 - 100 rpm gained or lost is possible. The MP-44 in the video sounds like its achieving around 450 rpm or so.

    And some extra facts for you, just by using different loads the MG-42's RoF could be changed from 1500 rpm to 1800 rpm in the field - the difference occured when firing high pressure SmK(H) and 'V' rounds.

    And about claims, well you're the one sphewing out one after the other, like this for example: More pearls. Using alloys or other lighter metals to increase the rof? Hmmm. Interesting that no other guns use this principle to increase firing rate.

    Apparently you're totally oblivious to the fact that bolt mass alone can change RoF alot. Ofcourse shooting an Ingram won't let you experience that...

    A .45 cal Ingram doesn't even approach the power levels of an assault rifle - don't compare the two.
     
  19. Jank

    Jank Member

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    Soren said,

    "And about underloading, yes you can underload ammunition and that will decrease the RoF of the gun, and yes there's a limit to how low you can go - too low and the weapon won't cycle the rounds at all. ~400 rpm is probably the lowest RoF you can reach with the MP-44 before it wont cycle the rounds anymore."

    "The RoF varies from 500 - 600 rpm"

    "500 rpm is just on the slow side, however I have seen footage clearly demonstrating a RoF of 600 rpm.
    "

    That's 400rpm on the low end for a gun that normally loaded fires up to 600rpm and at least 500rpm. Again,you're talking about a 25% to 50% increase in rof.

    "A .45 cal Ingram doesn't even approach the power levels of an assault rifle - don't compare the two."

    A Cobray M11 is not a .45 but a 9mm. :rolleyes:

    The principle you are trying to estabish would be even more applicable on a blowback oiperated action where the entire rearward energy of the cartridge is captured in cycling the action vs. bleeding off a small amouint of gas through a port.

    I am still awaiting evidence of your claim that the rof ican be radically decreased through "underloading" cartridges in a fully automatic weapon. I have no doubt that you have been searching far and wide across the internet.

    I will leave you with my statement from earlier that provides a far more plausible explaination of the video. "Or, and this is a radical idea, it may be a 500 or so rpm gun which is pretty much what the video showed." :shock:
     
  20. Jank

    Jank Member

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    While we are on the subject of unsubstantiated claims Soren, please cite where the video indicates that "The unusually slow RoF is a result of using purposely underloaded handloads so the gun can last longer."

    Hey, I have an idea Soren. Play the video for one second, stop it, mark that place and then go back and count how many rounds were fired when replaying in slow motion. :lol:
     
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