Sturmböcke in the East

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Nov 22, 2004
Correct me if necessary (please):

If I recall correctly the three (or perhaps some of the three) Sturmböck gruppen (of JG3, JG4 and JG300, after Sturmstaffel 1), were moved east in 1945, right after having had some striking succeses in 1944 against the formations of B-17s and B-24s.

Furthermore, if I recall correctly it was still in early 1945 (January?) that the Sturmböcke still had some striking victories against the USAAF´s heavy bombers.

Does anyone happen to know when were the Sturm units moved east and which units did the change comprise?

Did the Sturm fighters were use as ordinary fighters against the VVS?

Any further input will be very greatly appreciated.

Udet you are correct !

All of JG 3 and JG 4 were moved by 15th of January to the Ost Front. Some SturmFw's remained in both these units and there was an influence of regular A-9's equipped with 4 2cm weapons as well as being unarmored. JG 300 and JG 301 stayed behind in the west and yes JG 300 scored some notable victories agasint US bomber formations, notably 14 of January 45, but in turn were really hit hard....

E ~
(G/C) Lionel Mandrake said:
Dispite my Oxford education and cultured breeding, can some tell me what VVS means ?

It refers to the Soviet Red Air Force. I've no idea what "VVS" actually stands for.
how dare you ask a young man a question like that, there's laws against stuff like that you know..................
Lionel Mandrake:

I will be glad to increase your already vast culture: :D

VV-S stands for: Voenno-Vozdushniye Sily.

Being a Russian (50% 8) ) perhaps made me just type VVS rather than explaining a bit more on the meaning.


For one moment I had forgotten you were a member of the forum.
Thanks a lot for the input!

So there were some Fw190´s non fitted with the extra-armor? Well, can that perhaps lead to think they were not Sturmböcke as they had been deployed in the west against the USAAF heavies?

Another question raises, are there any records on the performance of the Sturm units in the eastern front?

Since the soviet air force did never produce any heavy bombers, the Sturm tactis weren´t necessary in the east?

Still I can imagine a formation of Sturmböcke intercepting a large formation of IL-2M´s. If the heavy bombers were to some extent "easy" victims (much larger and heavily defended targets) the Shturmoviks surely made even easier preys.
hello again friend

yes the sturm wedge tactics were withdrawn and no longer used but with so much experience in clsoe-in fighting the German crews flew very close and blew away the opposition. Over all the sturm pilots in JG 3 were lost to Soviet Flak. My friend Oskar Bosch still flew his black 14 and then later black 13 on the Ost front. Both a/c were the heavy A-8/R8's SturmFw. He scored the last victory of the gruppe by playing the roulette game with a Yak pilot and they both rammed each other, the Soviet pilots a/c nearly vaporized upon the collision. Oskar bailed out almost right next to one of his undercarriage arms/wheel stuck two feet in the ground. He was to be almost immediately captured By the Soviets and held in captivity for several days till he escaped and was taken by friendly W-SS truppen. Sent to the back Oskar made his way on foot back to his home in Austria.

E ~

Thank you very much for both the info and your friend´s story!
Speaking of stinging, pray u dont EVER see one of these at the beach....


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It seems like you require an urgent update on immigration issues in Mexico. :)

While being born in Moscow (Russian dad, British mom), when the USSR was already on the verge of collapse, I am not a Russian citizen anymore.

You would perhaps be surprised of how huge Mexico City is, and the numbers of people from all over the world living here are MASSIVE.

The Russian immigration to Mexico City was calculated around 65,000 people only in 2003. Of the several Philarmonic orchestras of Mexico City, I can tell you at least half of the musicians on each one of such orchestras are Russians (or coming from other former soviet republics).

Furthermore, do you know where the Yucatan peninsula is located? See the map of Mexico and you will see the country has a "hook" kind of shape. Well, the Yucatan peninsula would be the "sharp" end of the hook. All this to tell you, far more Cubans flee Mr. Castro´s private property to Mexico rather than to Florida. Curiously you never see that in the news. Mexico City is far more distant from La Habana than Yucatan is.

Regarding your question on who Hefestión and Cratero are.
One of my favorite history characters is Alexandros III Makedonon (Alexander the Great in english, Alejandro Magno in Spanish, etc.)

I have lots of historical books on Alexander, as well as a few excellent novels. My spanish has improved dramatically in recent months, then I came across a very good library here and bought me a novel (2 volumes) on Alexander; the author is a German guy: Gisbert Haefs.

Hefestión was the alleged lover of Alexander. Virtually of his same age, and also part of the macedonian nobility; also educated by Aristotle along with Alexander and the other boys of the macedonian nobility.

Crátero was also of the same age of Alexander, and became an officer in Alexander´s army throughout their amazing expedition to Asia.

Mr. Haefs depicts Hefestión as an arrogant wimp; the macedonian infantry (of peasants and sheperds) were nothing to him; just a bunch of filthy illiterates.

The other side of the coin was Cratero (Craterus in English); although being part of the inner circle of Alexander, he was very close to the troops. The macedonian infantry loved him for sharing the bonfire with them, eating with them.

Then Mr Haefs tells it was a common said for the macedonian troops: "Preferible una marcha forzada con Cratero a un banquete con Hefestión", which can be roughly transltated as:

"Preferable to have a forced march with Craterus than a banquet with Hephastion".

why are you so rude on me? :)

Cheddar Cheese and LancKickAss post off-topic stuff at least 90% of the time. :lol:

I was asked, I simply replied.

If you think you have anything interesting to add, back on topic, I will be pleased to read you. :D


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