Tempest V FW190D
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davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
If you are asking for a comparison, the Tempest and the Fw are roughly equal in airspeed over envelop. The Fw has a slight rate of climb advantage. The Tempest is heavier.
AFAIK no Tempest V vs 109D tests were ever carried out by any of the British or German establishments, so any analysis is going to be opinion based on existing flight test data and/or combat reports. Overall they were fairly evenly matched, although the Fw would have an increasing performance advantage at altitudes above c. 15,000 ft, the altitude at which the Sabre starts to run out of steam. Essentially another Spitfire I v Bf 109E debate...
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GregP
Major
You might check here: The Hawker Tempest Page
Not conclusive, but at least has some comparisons to work with.
Not conclusive, but at least has some comparisons to work with.
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
Thank you for the site Greg. I remember reading some of the vs Fw-190 info in Long Nose. I'll look it up when I get home tonight.
Jeff.
Jeff.
In the mock combat, the Dora carried no ammo, fuel load was reduced and was restricted in the altitude (3000m) it could be flown. Maj Lange was the pilot of the D-13, yellow 10, WNr 836017.
see D. Harmann's book on the Dora for the complete text.
see D. Harmann's book on the Dora for the complete text.
GregP
Major
No ammo certainly makes it lighter.
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CobberKane
Banned
- 706
- Apr 4, 2012
IIRC tests between the Tempest and the Mustang III indicated thaat the Tempest was somewhat better up to 15000ft, with the Mustang rapidly gaining the edge above 20000ft. If the Dora was ever tested against the P-51 you could extrapolate from that, maybe.
Everything will eventually return: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/polls/dora-vs-tempest-9888.html
GregP
Major
You're right, Marcel.
I saw the part about the poor Dora having to wait for big brother, the Ta-152, to come over and help out. 7 - 10 victories against 4 losses in aerial combat. I believe all the victories were in April 1945, but I could be disremembering. With help like that, who needs enemies? I think the Dora was a better fighter than the Ta-152 ever proved to be. Now the Ta-152 certainly had great potential ... but it never lived up to it in the real world, due primarily to wartime circumstances more than to any inherent flaws. However, like the saying goes, it is what it is ... and the Ta-152 didn't deliver when it counted. The Fw 190D in the various dash numbers, on the other hand, did a credible job in the face of overwhelming numbers. It gets my vote of all the Fw 190 family as the best of the breed.
It surely would be nice to get the German victory and loss data (and Japanese, Soviet, etc.) wouldn't it? Especially broken out like the US Navy WWII Summary study. I suppose it doesn't exist in its entirely, though a good portion of it might still be around somewhere. It would help these endless arguments if somebody could find it and make it available to the public.
If you look hard enough, you can find decent aerial victory lists, especially near the top end, but losses are tough to find from any believable source, and they vary enormously in the numbers when you CAN find them. Almost all of the loss lists I found claim to come from some source I can't locate anywhere. I discarded the "here's what I think" stuff years ago as babble.
I saw the part about the poor Dora having to wait for big brother, the Ta-152, to come over and help out. 7 - 10 victories against 4 losses in aerial combat. I believe all the victories were in April 1945, but I could be disremembering. With help like that, who needs enemies? I think the Dora was a better fighter than the Ta-152 ever proved to be. Now the Ta-152 certainly had great potential ... but it never lived up to it in the real world, due primarily to wartime circumstances more than to any inherent flaws. However, like the saying goes, it is what it is ... and the Ta-152 didn't deliver when it counted. The Fw 190D in the various dash numbers, on the other hand, did a credible job in the face of overwhelming numbers. It gets my vote of all the Fw 190 family as the best of the breed.
It surely would be nice to get the German victory and loss data (and Japanese, Soviet, etc.) wouldn't it? Especially broken out like the US Navy WWII Summary study. I suppose it doesn't exist in its entirely, though a good portion of it might still be around somewhere. It would help these endless arguments if somebody could find it and make it available to the public.
If you look hard enough, you can find decent aerial victory lists, especially near the top end, but losses are tough to find from any believable source, and they vary enormously in the numbers when you CAN find them. Almost all of the loss lists I found claim to come from some source I can't locate anywhere. I discarded the "here's what I think" stuff years ago as babble.
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I bought Reshke's book on JG 301 and 302 thinking that it would be useful. Jagdgeschwader 301/302 "Wilde Sau": In Defense Of The Reich with the Bf 109, Fw 190 and Ta 152: Willi Reschke: 9780764321306: Amazon.com: Books It is, up to a point but the victory and loss lists have lots of omissions compared with other sources and some of the information is cursory compared with (for example) Caldwell's JG 26 combat diaries. Still, it is better than some earlier accounts.
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GregP
Major
I have heard, though cannot verify either way, that Reshke's book "embellishes" his accopmplishments while minimizing those of others ... that from some of his unit mates. Once a real, live pilot says an account is questionable, I tend to not even read it, but they never said the entire work was wrong, just that he "padded" his victories at the expense of others in his unit.
As I said, I can't say either way, but we here in the USA have a few of those who used to knock around airshows and hawk their books.
As I said, I can't say either way, but we here in the USA have a few of those who used to knock around airshows and hawk their books.
You can't really fault the Ta 152 however. The situation rendered it a loss. The aircraft itself was hardly a failure in itself. I wonder if an allied aircraft that was not built in numbers, saw one month of combat, and had a similar kill ratio would be judged the same? I doubt it...
Not saying the Ta 152 was an Ueber Fighter. Don't take me wrong. We however simply will never know how good it was due to timing and circumstance.
Not saying the Ta 152 was an Ueber Fighter. Don't take me wrong. We however simply will never know how good it was due to timing and circumstance.
GregP
Major
I wholeheartedly agree. That's why I said it failed mostly due to wartime circumstances, not due to any intrinsic faults.
Basically, though they CLAIM it was in production, they actually delivered about 43 prototypes ... without any spares. The high mechanical attrition was probably mostly due to lack of spares that would normally be associated with deployment of a real production aircraft together with a cadre of trained mechanics. The delivered Ta-152's were probably flown to the airfields and dropped off, and I dount that even manuals were provided.
We had one German pilot speak once who had flown a Ta-152 and he said his aircraft was delivered by a pilot who subsequently left by truck. His mechanic was the same guy who had been with him for over a year and had no training on the Ta-152. I don't know, but it is possible that most of the delivered Ta-152's were done the same way.
Still, the performance was the performance, and I don't excuse it for any reason. The plane was basically a failure, but it due to wartime circumstances, not due to the plane itself. I still wish we had built a few after the war, even if in the German factories that were left standing. Maybe we'd have a flying few left if we had done so.
Basically, though they CLAIM it was in production, they actually delivered about 43 prototypes ... without any spares. The high mechanical attrition was probably mostly due to lack of spares that would normally be associated with deployment of a real production aircraft together with a cadre of trained mechanics. The delivered Ta-152's were probably flown to the airfields and dropped off, and I dount that even manuals were provided.
We had one German pilot speak once who had flown a Ta-152 and he said his aircraft was delivered by a pilot who subsequently left by truck. His mechanic was the same guy who had been with him for over a year and had no training on the Ta-152. I don't know, but it is possible that most of the delivered Ta-152's were done the same way.
Still, the performance was the performance, and I don't excuse it for any reason. The plane was basically a failure, but it due to wartime circumstances, not due to the plane itself. I still wish we had built a few after the war, even if in the German factories that were left standing. Maybe we'd have a flying few left if we had done so.
