The "best fighter engine in the world"

wuzak · Aug 31, 2012

I have been reading through Rolls-Royce and the Mustang, by David Birch for the RRHT when I found an interesting statement made by Ernest Hives to Wilfred Freeman in correspondence date 28th June 1942:

We are now running a Griffon 61 on test and are very pleased with it. It is the best fighter engine in the world, but there will be no aeroplane for it.

He goes on to dump on Supermarines about their Griffon powered Spitfire (presumably the XII) and its lack of progress. He described it as "a mock up" as it used the standard Spitfire wings.

So, was the Griffon 61 the best fighter engine in the world in mid-late 1942? Of course it didn't reach operational status until late 1943/early 1944, was it the best fighter engine in the world then?

If not, what was the best fighter engine? What was the best in the periods 1939-1941, 1942-1943, 1944-1945?

Shortround6 · Aug 31, 2012

You may want to adjust the time periods a bit and qualify when an engine was available. As in the Griffon example, best fighter engine in 1942 on the test stand for future fighters or best fighter engine in squadron service, even if only one squadron.

Maybe you would want to change the first time period to 1939-41 as 1942 would include the 60 Series Merlin and perhaps the R-2800?

wuzak · Aug 31, 2012

That better?

I think Hives was just being proud of his company's efforts.

I think we should stipulate engines in squadron service.

Shortround6 · Aug 31, 2012

Well, it evens things up a bit. The two stage R-1830 wasn't much ahead (if any) of some of the better single stage engines at the end of 1941 for power at altitude.

The 1939-1941 period sees the:

Merlin 45 and XX engines.
The P&W R-1830
Allison
DB 601

The French don't have anything and neither do the Russians or Italians. Japanese have the Sakae?

davebender · Aug 31, 2012

How many Griffon engines were produced prior to May 1945?

wuzak · Aug 31, 2012

davebender said:
How many Griffon engines were produced prior to May 1945?

6-7000, maybe more.

davebender · Aug 31, 2012

How is that possible?

Per Wikipedia 8,108 Griffon engines were built and that includes production right up to the late 1950s.

evangilder · Aug 31, 2012

If you look at Griffon powered Spitfires alone, there were 1688 of them before the war ended:

Griffin Spitfire Mk-------#......First flown
F Mk XII---------------100...Oct 1942
F Mk XIV, FR Mk XIV----957...Oct 1943
PR Mk XIX--------------224...May 1944
F Mk 21----------------120...Jan 1944
F Mk 22----------------287...Mar 1945
----------------------------
1688

wuzak · Aug 31, 2012

Because production wasn't as high a priority post war.

Maybe 6000 is on the high side, but 5000 should certainly be possible.

Griffon 61 - 1134 between 1942 1945
Griffon 64 - 200 in 1945
Griffon 65 - 1475 1943-1948
Griffon 66 - 360 1944-1945
Griffon 67 - 150 in 1945
Griffon 69 - 160 in 1945
Griffon 85 - 100 in 1945
Griffon 87 - 74 in 1945

Those are the 2 stage Griffons built mosty during WW2.

Data from Lumsden.

Vincenzo · Aug 31, 2012

evangilder said:
If you look at Griffon powered Spitfires alone, there were 1688 of them before the war ended:

Griffin Spitfire Mk-------#......First flown
F Mk XII---------------100...Oct 1942
F Mk XIV, FR Mk XIV----957...Oct 1943
PR Mk XIX--------------224...May 1944
F Mk 21----------------120...Jan 1944
F Mk 22----------------287...Mar 1945
----------------------------
1688

the 957 Spit XIV was built until december '45 so the war time production was less

tomo pauk · Aug 31, 2012

Do we take the reliability into account?

RCAFson · Aug 31, 2012

Vincenzo said:
the 957 Spit XIV was built until december '45 so the war time production was less

There was also about 700 Fireflys produced prior to VJ day (including 658 Mk 1) and about 400 Griffon powered Seafires, mostly the Mk XV.

davebender · Aug 31, 2012

700 Fireflys produced prior to VJ day (including 658 Mk 1) and about 400 Griffon powered Seafires

It appears the RN had priority for Griffon engines.

Vincenzo · Aug 31, 2012

RCAFson said:
There was also about 700 Fireflys produced prior to VJ day (including 658 Mk 1) and about 400 Griffon powered Seafires, mostly the Mk XV.

true there were also the Fireflys with Griffon engine afail all Mk 1 production is 678 and ended after the war. the Seafire XV production until april '45 was 74 when i've time i see on spitfires.ukf.net for the others months

ShVAK · Aug 31, 2012

My vote is as follows:

1939: Daimler-Benz 601N
1940: Rolls-Royce Merlin XX
1941: BMW 801 C-2
1942: Rolls-Royce Merlin 61
1943: P&W R-2800-10 or -59
1944: Napier Sabre V at low altitude, Rolls-Royce Griffon 65 anywhere else
1945: Tie between P&W R-2800-34W, Junkers Jumo 213E, Rolls-Royce Griffon 61

tomo pauk · Aug 31, 2012

From 1939-41: DB-601
1942-43. Merlin
1944-45: Griffon

NeilStirling · Aug 31, 2012

UK Griffon total supplies through to Feb 1945 from AVIA 38/887 The National Archive Kew UK.

Griffon VI,36,II, and XII total supplies 993

Griffon 61,65,66 and 69 total supplies 1,821.

Neil.

davebender · Aug 31, 2012

UK Griffon total supplies through to Feb 1945 from AVIA 38/887 The National Archive Kew UK.
Griffon VI,36,II, and XII total supplies 993
Griffon 61,65,66 and 69 total supplies 1,821.

IMO those production numbers are surprisingly small. Germany produced more DB603 and Jumo 213 engines during the same time frame while being bombed relentlessly.

Shortround6 · Aug 31, 2012

And if the British really felt that they needed more Griffons what could they have done?

The 1942 Merlin 61 was operating at 14-15lbs of boost I believe. Later changed to 18lbs with an improved supercharger drive and then to 25lbs with the coming of 150 PN fuel.

Had the improved fuel not shown up (first tested late 1943?) or some mechanical defect prevented the Merlin running at 25lbs boost then the British were in a position to change to more Griffons. With the Merlin providing "most" of the power needed/wanted there was no reason to greatly disrupt production.

British also had the Sabre to handle big engine duties.

Tante Ju · Aug 31, 2012

I guess the biggest problems the British faced in changing over the overall Better Griffon engines were the relative unreliability and short life span of the Griffon, and, Bomber Command's apetite for Merlins. If you can't afford 5000 engine production lost... then RR factories won't retool for another engine.

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