The best WW2 infantry squad or Platoon, choose, construct compare.

Discussion in 'WW2 General' started by Soren, Apr 26, 2009.

  1. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    If you were to put together the a WW2 infantry squad/platoon, then what men equipment would you choose for each nation and how will the squads/platoons finally compare to each other in your mind ?

    Rules are simple, pick between British(All Commonwealth), German, US, Italian, Japanese Soviet men equipment, construct a squad/platoon and compare their survivability in various inviroments.

    The choosable inviroments:
    Eastern Open Plains, grassy, few trees, mildly sloping landscape.
    French Normandy Bocage, heavy vegitation, vast amounts of hedgerows, small narrow roads, medium sloped landscape.
    Swiss Alps, rocky, heavily sloped mountainess terrain, pine trees, snow.
    Tunisian Desert, dusty, hot, flat to hilly terrain, palm trees, little water, a few oasises.
    Burmese Jungle, humid, hot, heavily densly vegetated, vast mamal, bird, insect reptilian population, little to no roads.

    And finally, keep it friendly guys :)
     
  2. syscom3

    syscom3 Pacific Historian

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    The Burmese jungle was bad. But the jungles in New Guinie were even worse.

    Without getting into the eqmt. portion, The Aussie small infantry units were the finest jungle fighters in the world.
     
  3. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Well what is most needed in the jungle is an acquaintance with the plant animal life, that is essential. The Australian troops were well trained in this, so a good choice.
     
  4. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    Late war German infantry are the way to go.

    1 x Squad leader with STG44 assault rifle.
    1 x Machinegunner with MG42 plus pistol.
    1 x Asst machinegunner with STG44 assault rifle plus extra MG42 barrel.
    (I assume the MG tripod is in the supply truck. Otherwise one of the riflemen will carry it.)

    1 x Fire team leader with STG44 assault rifle. Plus a panzerfaust.
    3 x Riflemen with STG44 assault rifle. Plus a belt of MG ammo.

    1 x Fire team leader with STG44 assault rifle. Plus a panzerfaust.
    3 x Riflemen with STG44 assault rifle. Plus a belt of MG ammo.

    11 men total. Every solder carries 2 grenades in addition to his other weapons.
     
  5. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Thats some serious firepower davebender,

    However I'd add 1x Sniper with a scoped Karabiner 98k for taking out any machine gun nests, commanders, snipers etc etc. So thats a 12 man team packing an enormous amount of firepower. Also I'd think about giving each fire team leader an FG-42 rifle, for added long range firepower. Also one of my riflemen will be a radioman, carrying a radio. So my German platoon would look almost the same:

    1 x Platoon leader with STG44 assault rifle. Plus pistol.
    1 x Machinegunner with MG42 plus pistol.
    1 x Asst. machinegunner with STG44 assault rifle plus extra MG42 barrels.

    1 x Fire team leader with FG-42 rifle (4x ZF41 Scope in bag). Plus a panzerfaust.
    3 x Riflemen with STG44 assault rifle. Two men with one belt of MG ammo each, and one with a Tornister Empfanger b reciever/transmitter radio.

    1 x Fire team leader with FG-42 rifle (4x ZF41 Scope in bag). Plus a panzerfaust.
    3 x Riflemen with STG44 assault rifle. Plus a belt of MG ammo.

    1 x Sniper with scoped Karabiner 98k rifle. Plus pistol.

    So that's 12 men, each man carrying 2 grenades plus 1 smoke grenade.

    With that I think we've got about the ideal German platoon ready in terms of smallarms equipment. Next we need survival tools, clothing, transport means etc etc.
     
  6. mkloby

    mkloby Active Member

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    Perhaps this could be broken into different time frames?
     
  7. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Good idea mkloby. We can do that as-well. Sp remember to note the time frame of the units.
     
  8. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Oki here's my proposal for Britain in terms of smallarms:

    1 x Platoon leader with Thompson SMG. Plus pistol.
    2 x Machinegunner with Bren Gun plus pistol.

    1 x Fire team leader with Thompson SMG. Plus a PIAT.
    3 x Riflemen with Lee Enfield Mk.4 rifle. Two with 3 extra Bren magazines. One with a radio.

    1 x Fire team leader with Thompson SMG. Plus a PIAT.
    3 x Riflemen with Lee Enfield Mk.4 rifle. 3 extra Bren Magazines.

    1 x Sniper with scoped Lee Enfield Mk.4 rifle. Plus pistol.

    In all 12 men, each carrying 2 frag grenades 1 smoke grenade.

    This should be good for the years 41 to 45.
     
  9. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    The US:

    1 x Platoon leader with Thompson SMG. Plus pistol.
    2 x Machinegunner with M1919. Plus pistol.

    1 x Fire team leader with Thompson SMG.
    3 x Riflemen with M1 Garand rifle. Two with extra ammo belts, one with a Bazooka.

    1 x Fire team leader with Thompson SMG. Plus radio.
    3 x Riflemen with M1 Garand rifle. Two with extra ammo belts, one with a Bazooka.

    1 x Sniper with scoped M1903 Springfield rifle. Plus pistol.

    All in all 12 men, each carrying 2 frag grenades and 1 smoke grenade.

    This should be good for the years 1941 to 45.
     
  10. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    The USSR:

    1 x Platoon leader with PPSH-41 SMG. Plus Pistol.
    2 x Machinegunner with DP-28 LMG. Plus Pistol.

    1 x Fire team leader with PPSH-41 SMG. Plus
    3 x Riflemen with SVT-40 rifle. Two with 2 extra ammo drums, one with Radio.

    1 x Fire team leader with PPSH-41 SMG.
    2 x Riflemen with SVT-40 rifle. Two extra ammo drums each.
    1 x Anti tank soldier with PTRS-41 AT rifle. Plus pistol.

    1 x Sniper with scoped M91/30 Nagant rifle. Plus pistol

    All in all 12 men, each carrying 2 frag grenades and 1 smoke grenade.

    This should be good for 1941 and onwards.
     
  11. Amsel

    Amsel Active Member

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    Here is a good Marine Raider unit.

    1x Squad leader with a Thompson

    1x Raider with Thompson
    1x Raider with BAR
    1x Raider with Garand

    1x Raider with Thompson
    1x Raider with BAR
    1x Raider with Garand

    1x Raider with Thompson
    1x Raider with BAR
    1x Raider with Garand

    Basically an inflitration force used for recon and the ability to complete objectives using clandestine and unorthadox tactics. A USMC guerilla force.

    The Raiders typically were able to choose some of the best and strongest men and had carte blanche on weapons they wanted.
     
  12. Amsel

    Amsel Active Member

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    A very dangerous squad, I like this loadout.
     
  13. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Ok well then there's 5 12 man platoons competing so far, and here's what they bring along in terms of firepower:

    Britain (Commonwealth)

    1 x Platoon leader with Thompson SMG. Plus pistol.
    2 x Machinegunner with Bren Gun plus pistol.

    1 x Fire team leader with Thompson SMG. Plus a PIAT.
    3 x Riflemen with Lee Enfield Mk.4 rifle. Two with 3 extra Bren magazines. One with a radio.

    1 x Fire team leader with Thompson SMG. Plus a PIAT.
    3 x Riflemen with Lee Enfield Mk.4 rifle. 3 extra Bren Magazines.

    1 x Sniper with scoped Lee Enfield Mk.4 rifle. Plus pistol.

    Each man carrying 2 frag grenades 1 smoke grenade.


    Germany

    1 x Platoon leader with STG44 assault rifle. Plus a pistol.
    1 x Machinegunner with MG42. Plus a pistol.
    1 x Asst. machinegunner with STG44 assault rifle plus extra MG42 barrels.

    1 x Fire team leader with FG-42 rifle (4x ZF41 Scope in bag). Plus a Panzerfaust.
    3 x Riflemen with STG44 assault rifle. Two men with one belt of MG ammo each, and one with a Tornister Empfanger b reciever/transmitter radio.

    1 x Fire team leader with FG-42 rifle (4x ZF41 Scope in bag). Plus a Panzerfaust.
    3 x Riflemen with STG44 assault rifle. Plus a belt of MG ammo each.

    1 x Sniper with scoped Karabiner 98k rifle. Plus a pistol.

    Each man carrying 2 concussion grenades plus 1 smoke grenade.


    USA

    1 x Platoon leader with Thompson SMG. Plus pistol.
    2 x Machinegunner with M1919. Plus pistol.

    1 x Fire team leader with Thompson SMG.
    3 x Riflemen with M1 Garand rifle. Two with extra ammo belts, one with a Bazooka.

    1 x Fire team leader with Thompson SMG. Plus radio.
    3 x Riflemen with M1 Garand rifle. Two with extra ammo belts, one with a Bazooka.

    1 x Sniper with scoped M1903 Springfield rifle. Plus pistol.

    Each man carrying 2 frag grenades and 1 smoke grenade.

    And a small raiding platoon:

    1x Squad leader with a Thompson

    1x Raider with Thompson
    1x Raider with BAR
    1x Raider with Garand

    1x Raider with Thompson
    1x Raider with BAR
    1x Raider with Garand

    1x Raider with Thompson
    1x Raider with BAR
    1x Raider with Garand


    USSR

    1 x Platoon leader with PPSH-41 SMG. Plus Pistol.
    2 x Machinegunner with DP-28 LMG. Plus Pistol.

    1 x Fire team leader with PPSH-41 SMG. Plus
    3 x Riflemen with SVT-40 rifle. Two with 2 extra ammo drums, one with Radio.

    1 x Fire team leader with PPSH-41 SMG.
    2 x Riflemen with SVT-40 rifle. Two extra ammo drums each.
    1 x Anti tank soldier with PTRS-41 AT rifle. Plus pistol.

    1 x Sniper with scoped M91/30 Nagant rifle. Plus pistol

    Each man carrying 2 frag grenades and 1 smoke grenade.

    __________________________________________________________

    Now unless there are more team suggestions then we need to figure out the transportation vehicles we want to give each team as-well as other use equipment clothing.
     
  14. Vassili Zaitzev

    Vassili Zaitzev Well-Known Member

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    Guess I'll try my hand.

    United States 12 man squad.

    2x soldiers W/.30 caliber machine gun/ plus pistol and belt of ammo.
    1x squad leader w/ Thompson SMG

    1x sniper W/ springfield 1903 w/scope
    3x soldiers w/ M1 Garand

    2x soldiers w/ Browing Automatic Rifles
    1x soldier w/ bazooka plus pistol and three rockets

    2x soldier w/ M3 grease gun.

    Each soldier has sidearm, plus two grenades.

    I think that covers it, feel free to correct my on anything.
     
  15. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    We could ofcourse say that it needs to be a 20 man 2 squad 1 scout platoon instead of the current 12 man 2 squad platoon ?

    In that case I'd equip the German platoon like so:

    Germany

    Firepower:

    1 x Platoon leader with FG42 rifle (4x ZF41 Scope in bag). Plus a pistol.
    2 x Machinegunner with MG42 LMG/HMG. Plus a pistol.
    2 x Asst. machinegunner with StG44 assault rifle, plus two extra MG barrels one 250 round ammunition belt box each.

    1 x Squad leader with FG42 rifle (4x ZF41 Scope in bag). Plus a Panzerfaust.
    4 x Riflemen with StG44 assault rifle. Three men with one MG ammo belt each, and one with a Tornister Empfanger b reciever/transmitter radio.

    1 x Squad leader with FG42 rifle (4x ZF41 Scope in bag). Plus a Panzerfaust.
    4 x Riflemen with StG44 assault rifle. Two men with one MG belt each, and two men with one MG tripod each.

    1 x Squad leader with FG42 rifle (4x ZF41 Scope in bag). Plus a Panzerfaust.
    1 x Rifleman with S18/1100 AT rifle.
    1 x Asst. Rifleman with StG44 assault rifle, carrying S18/1100 barrel, plus extra 20mm AP ammunition.
    2 x Rifleman with StG44 assault rifle, plus a Panzerfaust.

    1 x Sniper with scoped Karabiner 98k rifle. Plus a pistol.

    Transport:

    Land:
    4 x VW Type 166 Schwimmwagen 4x4's.
    4 x SdKfz. 2 Kettenrad's.

    Air:
    4 x Fa223 Helicopters (For quick infiltration extraction missions)

    Or

    4x Ar232 Transport a/c (Which means the capability to bring along all the Land transport vehicles above)

    Extra equipment:

    2 x 10.5cm LG40 Recoilless cannon (To be towed by the 4x4's)
    6 x Ammunition trailers (To be towed by the 4x4's Kettenrads)
     
  16. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Now the Japanese haven't been mentioned yet, and perhaps because the Japanese infantry wasn't the best equipped force within the Japanese military. They were fanatic for sure, and some also well trained in jungle warfare. But their equipment was pretty outdated by beginning of WW2. So I think we can rule them out as truly competitive in this comparison.
     
  17. Amsel

    Amsel Active Member

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    The Japanese Marines were very tough. The SNLF( Special Naval Landing Forces) of the IJN saw extensive service in the Sino-Japanese War and wreaked havoc wherever they showed up in the Pacific during WWII. They were supposedly at Tarawa inflicting about 3,000 casualties on the USMC during the landings. They of course like the IJA units were known for their brutality and fanaticism. Experienced and well trained. The reason for the brutality among the IJA and IJN troops could probably be due to how they themselves were treated in the Japanese military. The discipline was very brutal.
     
  18. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    WWII era military radios are too heavy for general issue at the infantry squad level. It's more likely this would be a company level asset. The sniper is probably also a company level asset. They would be attached at the squad level only for special missions like a recon patrol.
     
  19. parsifal

    parsifal Well-Known Member

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    I'm still struggling with this. I'm stuck on the transport to select, the clothing to use, the boots , and other personal equipment, the support weapons needed, even the weight of pack to select.

    I wil get back to you once or if I can figure it out. Issues to consider are not just the firepower they can generate, but also reliability, cost, and long life (particulalry for clothing) and protection from the elements.

    The Japanese were unquestionably outclassed with many of their weapons, but there were one or two items that might be worth considering. Their 70mm battalion guns were much feared in the jungle, able to fulfil all roles except AA. Their MGs were not pretty to look at, but their Type 92 could be adjusted so as to fire under 250 rpm and to deliver plunging fire into trenches. They were much feared by allied soldiers despite their obsolesence. They and the 70mm Bn guns mentioned previously gave the Japanese squads and platoons a measure of firepower out of all proportion with what one might expect. Two items of their personal kit are also worth mentioning. The Japanese trenching tool was fitted with an anti fouling device (I dont know the details exactly), that allowed them to dig in much more effectively and quickly than their allied counterparts in mud or swamp. The Japanese also were issued with special ultralight canvas and rubber boots, with a split in between the big toes and the other toes. This gave the japanese the ability to scale greasy slopes and trees in the jungle far more effectively than either the hobnailed boots of the allies or the rubber soled boots of the US Army.

    Japanese soldiers went into battle in the jungle very light, seldom carrying more than their weapons and ammunition. Typically they were seldom burdened with more than 30 lbs of pack, whereas their allied counterparts might attampt to carry as much as 60 or 70 lbs. Carrying that much weight made the allies virtually immobile in the jungle, and greatly facilitated Japanese "hook" manouvres, that cost the allies so many losses in the early battles. It was not until the Allies learnt not to worry about their flanks too much, and were able to rely on air supply and relief from the rear that the Japanese tactics of light packs and rapid outflanking manouvres were beaten. This took the British until 1944 to learn. Some Australian and US units were withstanding the Japanese hook manoeuvres by October 1942, some American units never learnt how to deal with this problem, and were still worrying about outflanking in the jungle right up to the end of the war

    It is worth noting that the Viet Min, the vicots at Dien Bien Phu, against the french, used mostly Japanese Tactics and methods in that battle, except for the ring of AA that was used, a Soviet concept used very successfully at Stalingrad.
     
  20. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Well we are creating a platoon sized unit here, since we got vehicles and such at disposal, which is abit larger than the average squad. But Snipers could were sometimes attached to units as small as squads in the German army, however it mostly wouldn't be trained snipers, rather the best shot in the company given a scoped rifle, the squad sharpshooter so to speak. The trained snipers were usually in special sniper groups attached to Battalions, while some were assigned to companies.

    And as for the Tornister Empfanger B radio, it was much used by FallschirmJäger companies and was described as highly portable, weighing about the same as a full backpack. But either way this is about constructing the best infantry unit possible pr. nation :)

    But perhaps the small 1944 Kleinfunksprecher d two way radio reciever is a better choice:
    15W.S.E.a transmitter and receiver, German WWII, WW2

    Here's a picture of some FallschirmJäger radio men (The guy on the right is carrying the TFuG.k two-way radio transceiver, and the guy on the left is carrying the Torn. E. b Regenerative TRF Reciever):
     

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