The German heroes who helped Allies against Hitler

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

but killing your own countrymen is treason...

Not necessarily. Because of Hitlers complete disregard for human life and his desire to destroy Germany (He may not have seen it this way but that is what it comes down to) and the rest of Europe along with it, killing him would not have been an act of treason. There were eneogh people that would have stood by that person.

 

[ccheese]

Adm Canaris and the group of the Schwarz Kapelle did not think of
themselves as traitors..... altho they full well knew the penalty if caught.
It was death by hanging. But, there were no gallows in Germany at the
time, so they came up with the "meat-hook" to hang people from. There
is even some speculation that Rommell was a member.... which is why his
suicide was billed as "died from wounds", and he was given a hero's funeral.
The members of the SK thought of themselves as patriots... there aim was
to save Germany from the tyrant.

Charles

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

But, there were no gallows in Germany at the
time, so they came up with the "meat-hook" to hang people from.

Huh??? Where did you learn this?

There
is even some speculation that Rommell was a member.... which is why his
suicide was billed as "died from wounds", and he was given a hero's funeral.

You might want to read up on this some more.

Rommel was accused of being apart of the plot to kill Hitler. He was given the choice of a Trial where he would be found guilty and his whole family would be "dealt" with or the choice of Suicide. He took suicide naturally to protect his family. Because Rommel was loved by the German people his death was officially announced as have occured because of the wounds he obtained in an air attack in Normandy and was given a state funeral.

 

[The Basket]

From what I can remember there were no gallows in Berlin as the form of execution was the axe.
Although the meat hook hanging was a very nasty death indeed...slow strangulation.

All german servicemen swore personal allegiance to Hitler in an oath...so all who were against Hitler broke the oath.

My view is that a soldier gives his loyalty to the state and people...not a political figure. If the political figure is leading his people and country to disaster then I have no problem in going against the leader for the greater good. If a national killed the likes of Idi Amin or Saddam...he is not a traitor in my book.

 

[Udet]

Well, everyone handles a personal field book with regard to defining treason...

I´ll mention one case that is widely known to the public: there was a moment during 1940 when Hitler offered peace to Good Guy Churchill, with hard evidence to support the authenticity of the offer (example: letting the BEF flee Dunkirk, saving it from either captivity or annihilation on the field), yet Churchill refused the offer...would this qualify as leading Great Britain to disaster since by the time it was the Germans keeping the upper hand?

Further, would then be valid to have British high ranking officers or government officials aiding the Germans -betraying Churchill-? They could well argue all they were trying to do is save England from the decisions a stupid, lunatic or unwise leader...

My approach to the notion is more universal and not personal; any high ranking officer in the military who aids a foreign government when a state of war exists is a traitor. The most modest private would like to have a moment with a countrymen known for having helped the enemy during a war.

 

[Ghostdancer]

Much has been written about Irwin Rommel's role in the Hitler assassination attempt, but from what I can gather his role doesn't seem to be very clear if indeed he was involved or just had knowledge of the plot.

 

[The Basket]

I've read many explanations for Dunkirk and Hitler being nice to the British is only a theory.

Churchill carried on fighting because it would be mean Hitler would be master of europe and he wasn't going to rule nice. To make peace to Hitler was to surrender to Hitler and I thank the lord that no British man would crawl to such a man and beg. Remember Munich? We made peace there and got war.

 

[Maestro]

I´ll mention one case that is widely known to the public: there was a moment during 1940 when Hitler offered peace to Good Guy Churchill, with hard evidence to support the authenticity of the offer (example: letting the BEF flee Dunkirk, saving it from either captivity or annihilation on the field), yet Churchill refused the offer...would this qualify as leading Great Britain to disaster since by the time it was the Germans keeping the upper hand?

I think you need to re-read about Dunkirk. Ever heard of the Le Paradis massacre ? I would hardly call that a "hard evidence to support the offer".

Read that. Get smarter :
Le Paradis massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or the Wormhoudt massacre ? Once again, educate yourself :
Wormhoudt massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also, our British folks can correct me if I'm wrong here, because my knowledge of pre-war Great-Britain is rather limited.

But wasn't Chamberlain (Churchill's predecessor) one of Hitler's fan ? And didn't he lose his elections to Churchill due to that fact ? If so we can say one thing : may be Churchill lost the elections after the war because of the war, but he was also elected before the war for war.

 

[The Basket]

Chamberlin was never a fan of Hitler but trusted him. He would only realise later the truth.

Of course...in the UK there was support for Hitler from many sides.

If the UK made peace with Hitler then how long would it last? Hitler had a habit of breaking treaties when it suited.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I´ll mention one case that is widely known to the public: there was a moment during 1940 when Hitler offered peace to Good Guy Churchill, with hard evidence to support the authenticity of the offer (example: letting the BEF flee Dunkirk, saving it from either captivity or annihilation on the field), yet Churchill refused the offer...would this qualify as leading Great Britain to disaster since by the time it was the Germans keeping the upper hand?

Churchill was right for not taking any peace offering from Hitler. Hitler was an evil mad man and he needed to be stopped.

My approach to the notion is more universal and not personal; any high ranking officer in the military who aids a foreign government when a state of war exists is a traitor. The most modest private would like to have a moment with a countrymen known for having helped the enemy during a war.

Just my opinion but you are not looking at it in a rational way. Hitler was an evil mad man who was destroying Germany. In that way, no they were not traitors because they were doing it for the better good of Germany, and lets face it Hitler was not the best thing for Germany.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

If the UK made peace with Hitler then how long would it last? Hitler had a habit of breaking treaties when it suited.

And like most treaties he made, this one would have been broken too in time, if it had happened. I personally dont think Hitler ever really wanted to make a peace treaty. If he had ideas for it, it was only because he realized he had bitten off more than he could chew when the plans for Russia were developing.

 

[Njaco]

It sounds like Udet supports the claims made at Nuremberg that "I was only following orders!" Isn't it possible for a few to recognize evil and fight against it now matter where it comes from and however they can? Not everyone was a Nazi in Germany and believed in its position. Its like saying because our president is Republican everybody is.

I'm trying to remeber but I recall a group of students in Germany during the war called "The Rose" or something similar that actively (as best they could) protested against the government. They were caught and killed.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

You are referring to the White Rose.

The White Rose was a student group led by there Proffesor from the Univeristy of Munich.

The group became famous for there leaflets they spread around Germany attempting to call the German people to rise against Hitler and his regime.

In 1943 6 of the members were captured and beheaded. Some of there leaflets were smuggled out into England and the RAF dropped the leaflets all over Germany retitled "The Manifesto of the Students of Munich."

Below is a picture of Hans Scholl (left), Sophie Scholl (center), and Christoph Probst (right) in Munich in 1942.

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

The temperature in the baggage compartment, where Brandt had put the package, had dropped rapidly, freezing the acid fuse.

Bugger it.

Udet, I respect German veterans, and many people on here do too.

but killing your own countrymen is treason...

Do you mean if you were a German that fled Germany and then went back and killed his country men?

What about a German American? Born in America, but his parents lived in Germany perhaps. I'm sure the US Military had them.

I know Japanese Americans fought agains't their homeland. I imagine they would have been seen as traitors by Japanese.

Should those Japanese and Germans, citizens of the US from birth, not have fought for the Allies and joined Axis?

For instance, Allied Germans couldn't kill Hitler, without killing their homeland people. For one they live now in a differant country. Only job they could take is a limited commando mission, parachuted behind German lines to kill Hitler. But that kind of job is rare.

To kill Hitler was almost easier if you were a German citizen. Rommel probably was in the bomb plot to kill Hitler, but he was still a loyal German, and once Hitler was dead would still have fought for Germany.

A German who's a British Commando, after killing Hitler, can't suddenly join Germany's army and leave Britain, without being seen still as a Traitor. Maybe leaving the Allied Army is better, than hurting your homeland afterward, in that case? Though once Hitler died, the war might have ended soon.

It's a hard question. I guess it's like if a British man was born in Germany and lived there all his life, or an American, and decided it was best to fight for Germany, since he felt more German than anything else.

 

[Udet]

Soundbreaker:

Well, yours is a far more detailed issue; if some German was not living in Germany for whatever reason, and joined the army of the U.S.A. and served in combat against the Wehrmacht the situation seems understandable and valid if you will, for he would be wearing the uniform of the U.S. Army.

I was focusing my view on those Germans serving in the German armed forces during the war, in German uniform and/or while in office as officials of the German government.

If we speak about Canaris...oh crap!! the Chief of the Abwehr!!!! How many lives of German civilians, soldiers and military equipment were either compromised or lost as direct consequence of his actions?

In my view there has not been nor there will be any type of punishment, penalty and torture proceedings that could make Canaris pay for his actions. Whatever was it that they did to Canaris it was not enough. (I have read 3 books focused on the Admiral).

A guy who was born in the U.S.A., raised there and who was living there, no matter the origin of his parents has an even easier choice in my view. Serve in the U.S. Army, and you will wear their uniform.

It seems like you agree with me; those so called German heroes that helped the allies "against Hitler" would forcefully affect the German citizens they were allegedly trying to "rescue", which is perhaps the core of this issue.

Having people of foreign origins in armies ain´t new business. It is a concept as old as the world is.

People of so many different nationalities wore the German uniform in the war, including people from nations previously defeated by Germany. All those were considered traitors in their nations when the war ended; those russians who served in German uniform met a terrible fate when the Brits and USAers handed them over to the soviets.

What seems a bit intriguing is the fact it was precisely in the German army where most foreigners served during the war (in German uniform), including people from neutral states such as Spain and Sweden...also Belgians, French, , Danes, Dutch, Norwegians (volunteers not conscripts) and a large number from the three Baltic states. How would you explain this phenomena?

Did foreigners volunteer in such numbers say for the U.S. Army during WW2?

 

[Njaco]

Udet, I can understand some of your points but reality isn't always so rosy.

Are we to condemn Lt. Franz Stigler cause he didn't shoot down Capt. Brown and Ye Olde Pub when he had a chance? And as far as foriegn volunteers, I know that some joined to escape. One Dane joined the Luftwaffe then stole a plane to fly to Switzerland to escape. You do what you do to survive. A blanket indictment is not fair. Each has his own story.

 

[The Basket]

Any Norwegian who joined the German army was a traitor. His country was illegally occupied and ruled harshly and he joins in? No excuses. He is working against the best interests of his people and country...same for belgium and Denmark. Spain was an ally.

The Baltic states was first Stalins then Hitlers and they certainly had reason to fight the Soviets. Maybe they fought for their own reasons.

Don't know what Canaris did so can't comment.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Soundbreaker:

Well, yours is a far more detailed issue; if some German was not living in Germany for whatever reason, and joined the army of the U.S.A. and served in combat against the Wehrmacht the situation seems understandable and valid if you will, for he would be wearing the uniform of the U.S. Army.

I was focusing my view on those Germans serving in the German armed forces during the war, in German uniform and/or while in office as officials of the German government.

If we speak about Canaris...oh crap!! the Chief of the Abwehr!!!! How many lives of German civilians, soldiers and military equipment were either compromised or lost as direct consequence of his actions?

In my view there has not been nor there will be any type of punishment, penalty and torture proceedings that could make Canaris pay for his actions. Whatever was it that they did to Canaris it was not enough. (I have read 3 books focused on the Admiral).

A guy who was born in the U.S.A., raised there and who was living there, no matter the origin of his parents has an even easier choice in my view. Serve in the U.S. Army, and you will wear their uniform.

It seems like you agree with me; those so called German heroes that helped the allies "against Hitler" would forcefully affect the German citizens they were allegedly trying to "rescue", which is perhaps the core of this issue.

Having people of foreign origins in armies ain´t new business. It is a concept as old as the world is.

People of so many different nationalities wore the German uniform in the war, including people from nations previously defeated by Germany. All those were considered traitors in their nations when the war ended; those russians who served in German uniform met a terrible fate when the Brits and USAers handed them over to the soviets.

What seems a bit intriguing is the fact it was precisely in the German army where most foreigners served during the war (in German uniform), including people from neutral states such as Spain and Sweden...also Belgians, French, , Danes, Dutch, Norwegians (volunteers not conscripts) and a large number from the three Baltic states. How would you explain this phenomena?

Did foreigners volunteer in such numbers say for the U.S. Army during WW2?

Its funny Udet because the majority of these so called "Traitors" of Germany are revered as Heroes by the German people today. There are monuments set up for them. How do you explain this Udet?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Don't know what Canaris did so can't comment.

He took an active role against Hitler and his evil regime. He was not a traitor in the sense that Udet likes to portray him.

From Wiki:

"After Adolf Hitler's rise to power in 1933, Canaris was made head of the Abwehr, Germany's official military intelligence agency, on January 1, 1935. Later that year, he was promoted to Rear Admiral. In the period 1935-36 he made contacts with Spain to organize a German spy network in Spain. His excellent Spanish made him the very man for the job. He was the moving force behind the decision that sided Germany with Francisco Franco during the Spanish Civil War, despite Hitler's initial hesitation to undertake such an adventure. In 1937 he was still a supporter of Hitler, considering him to be the only solution against communism and a hope for the revival of Germany as a nation. By 1938, however, he had realised Hitler's policies and plans would bring catastrophe to Germany and secretly began to work against the régime. His personal style as a gentleman could not tolerate the gangsterism of most of the Nazi party members. There is a letter that remained from a Spanish contact he had that confirms clearly his opinion against the Nazi regime. He tried to hinder Hitler's attempts to absorb Czechoslovakia and advised Franco not to permit German passage through Spain for the purposes of capturing Gibraltar. It has been written that all of Franco's arguments on this stance were studied and dictated in detail by Canaris, while at the same time an important sum of money had been deposited by the British on Swiss accounts for Franco and his generals to further convince them to be neutral.[2]

He also became involved in two abortive plots to assassinate Hitler, first in 1938 and again in 1939. His most audacious attempt was in planning, with Ewald von Kleist-Schmenzin, to capture and eliminate Hitler and the entire Nazi party before the invasion of Austria. At this particular moment, von Kleist visited England secretly and discussed the situation with British MI6 and some high ranking politicians. There, the name of Canaris became widely known as the executive hand of von Kleist in the event of an anti-Nazi plot. The high ranking German military leaders believed that if Hitler invaded Austria, or any other country, then England would declare war on Germany. MI6 was of the same opinion. However, the British reaction to the eventual Austrian Anschluss (and Hitler's annexation of the Sudetenland) was more cautious. At a meeting with Hitler in Munich, British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain chose diplomacy over war. Munich was a severe disappointment for Kleist and Canaris. It represented an important boost to Hitler's international esteem for two reasons: one, he was able to play the part of a man of reason and compromise; and two, he could boast that his predictions that England would not respond with war had proven to be correct. It is said that Canaris, extremely shocked by this 'dishonest and stupid decision' (his own words), decided to be cautious and wait for a better time to act against Hitler. Nevertheless, it appears likely that MI6 maintained contact with Canaris even after the Munich Agreement. When Winston Churchill came to power, Canaris' hopes were renewed, given the new Prime Minister's strong position against Hitler.

In the meantime, Reinhard Heydrich, previously a naval cadet who had served under Canaris and was at the time the Sicherheitsdienst (SD) leader, despite being his protegé, friend and neighbour, became his rival. Presumably, the Canaris posting in Abwehr had the secret approval of the dynamic Heydrich who preferred him instead of his predecessor, Captain of the Navy Pfatz, who was not in line with the Nazi party members. Heydrich wanted a controllable Abwehr and was keeping a close eye on Canaris. Canaris appeared outwardly to side with his friend Heydrich, but only in order to give Abwehr a chance to grow and become a considerable force. In Bassett's account,[3] Canaris was deeply frustrated by a briefing by Hitler before the attack on Poland, about a series of exterminations that were ordered and Canaris was required to take notes on. These notes, the book confirms, were sent to MI6. After the outbreak of war between Germany and Poland in 1939, Canaris visited the front and witnessed examples of the war crimes committed by the SS Einsatzgruppen. Among these were the burning of the synagogue in Będzin and the fiery death of the town's Jewish residents. He also received reports from Abwehr agents about many other incidents of mass murder throughout Poland.

Shocked by these incidents, Canaris began working more actively, at increasing risk, to overthrow Hitler's régime, although he cooperated with the SD to create a decoy. This allowed him to pose as a trusted man for some time. He was promoted to full Admiral in January 1940. With his subordinate Erwin Lahousen, he established a circle of similarly-minded Wehrmacht officers, many of whom would be executed or forced to commit suicide after the failure of the July 20 Plot. It has been speculated that there was contact with British intelligence during this time, despite the war between the two countries. It is thought that during the invasion of Russia, Canaris received a detailed report of all the enemy positions that was known only to the British. The head of MI6, Stewart Menzies, who shared Canaris's strong anti-communist beliefs, praised Canaris's courage and bravery at the end of the war. Reinhard Heydrich and Heinrich Himmler, however, investigated in detail the sources of Canaris's information on Operation Barbarossa, arriving at the conclusion that there had indeed been contact between him and the British. After 1942, Canaris visited Spain frequently and was probably in contact with British agents from Gibraltar. In 1944, he also secretly met Allied agents in occupied France trying to find a way to end the war before the total collapse of his country.

During Heydrich's posting in Prague, a serious incident put him and Canaris in open conflict. A British agent - the Czech Paul Thümmel - was arrested by Heydrich, but Canaris intervened to save him, claiming he was a double agent actually working for Abwehr. Heydrich suspected that Thümmel was actually Canaris's MI6 contact. Heydrich requested that Canaris put the Abwehr under SD and SS control. Canaris appeared to retreat and handled the situation diplomatically, but there was no immediate effect on the Abwehr for the time being. In fact, Canaris had established another two links with the MI6 - one via Zurich, and the other via Spain and Gibraltar. It is also possible that Vatican contacts provided a third route to his British counterparts.

Canaris also intervened to save a number of victims of Nazi persecution, including hundreds of Jews. Many such people were given token training as Abwehr "agents" and then issued papers allowing them to leave Germany. One notable person he is said to have assisted was the then Lubavitcher Rebbe in Warsaw, Rabbi Yosef Yitzchok Schneersohn[4]. The assassination of Reinhard Heydrich in Prague, organized by MI6, was done in part to preserve Canaris in his important position.

Evidence of his connivances grew and at the insistence of Heinrich Himmler, who had suspected him for a long time, Hitler dismissed Canaris from the Abwehr in February 1944, replacing him with Walter Schellenberg and merging most of the Abwehr with the Sicherheitsdienst (SD). Some weeks later, Canaris was put under house arrest, preventing him from taking part directly in the July 20 Plot to assassinate Hitler. However, just after the Stalingrad disaster, Canaris had already designed a 'coup' against the entire Nazi regime in which many Nazi officials would be accused for known crimes, while Hitler would be arrested as an insane person based on his exposure to poison gas in World War I, then imprisoned for life. After the July 20 Plot, Canaris's long-time rival, SS leader Heinrich Himmler discovered that one of the officers involved in the plot, a friend of Canaris' who committed suicide, had kept the plot details in a metal box. It also became known during the investigations that a number of other assassination plots (possibly another 10 or 15) had been activated, but had failed and were covered up at the last minute. Most people who participated in these plots were people Canaris knew well. Himmler kept Canaris alive for some time because he planned to use him secretly as a future contact with the British in order to come to an agreement to end the war with himself as the leader of Germany. Hitler wanted him alive as well to be able to find more conspirators. When Himmler's plan failed to materialize, he received the approval of Hitler to send Canaris to an SS drumhead court-martial that sentenced him to death.

Together with his deputy General Hans Oster, military jurist General Karl Sack, theologian Rev. Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Ludwig Gehre, Canaris was humiliated and executed by slow strangulation at Flossenbürg concentration camp on April 9, 1945, a few weeks before the end of the war. At the time of his execution, Canaris had been decorated with the Iron Cross First and Second Class, the Silver German Cross, the Cross of Honor and the Wehrmacht's Twelve and Twenty-Five Year Long-Service Ribbons.

Erwin Lahousen and Hans Bernd Gisevius, two of Canaris' main subordinates, survived the war and testified during the Nuremberg Trials to Canaris' courage in opposing Hitler. Lahousen recalled a conversation between Canaris and General Wilhelm Keitel in which Canaris warned Keitel that the German military would be held responsible for the atrocities in Poland. Keitel responded that they had been ordered by Hitler. Keitel, who also survived the war, was found guilty of war crimes at Nuremburg and hanged."

 

[Udet]

Adler:

I know that; i have been to Germany so many times, so i can say i know quite well how these individuals are seen today within the majority of the German people.

I do not think i can let you know my opinions that would explain this phenomena, because you are a German yourself and i am completely sure you would not like my views, at all.