The High Yo-Yo

Smokey · Sep 1, 2005

"Before the Spit pilot knew what had happened, I was high above him, the Thunderbolt hammering around. And that was it -- for in the next few moments the Spitfire flier was amazed to see a less-maneuverable, slower-climbing Thunderbolt rushing straight at him, eight guns pointed ominously at his cockpit."

Major Robert S. Johnson, USAAF
27 victories, WWII

Johnson, Robert S., with Martin Caidin. Thunderbolt! New York: Ballantine Books, 1958; p. 148

http://www.musketeers.org/Hiyoyo.htm

Also I seem to recall Bob Johnson describing using a "high yo-yo", a kind of turning barrel roll, to effectively turn inside German fighters known to have a superior rate of turn to his P-47. Don't know if this type of maneuver would work for Hurricane vs Zero, as I believe power-to-weight ratio would be important to the successful outcome, but if all else fails ---

http://www.j-aircraft.com/faq/A6M.htm#Hurricane vs Zero over Ceylon

What evidence is there other than Johnson's that this maneuver worked?

FLYBOYJ · Sep 1, 2005

It would work in almost any engagment providing your adversary stays on the horizintal plane.......

I've done it in an L-29 vs a T-33. I smoked em! 8)

Smokey · Sep 1, 2005

Cool!

Peeling off and smoking a cigar while doing a slow turn, and meanwhile your opponent is sweating pulling high Gs in the tightest possible turn. Then you just latch onto them. Nice!

Must have been a bit of a shock for the Spit driver 8)

FLYBOYJ · Sep 1, 2005

If you notice, when in the vertical inthe yo-yo the top is an oval. you could do the same thing on the bottom (low yo-yo), letting the opponent stay above you, but managing your energy so you could still get a firing solution. The whole thing is centered around the shape of an "egg."

Lunatic · Sep 1, 2005

The roll rate of the plane is also critical. To do a good high yo-yo you need to be able to pull up hard and then roll quickly into a firing solution as you dip the nose.

The P-47 was one of the few planes that did not loose much roll rate when under G's, making it ideal for such a manuver as the pilot could pull up hard and roll in one manuver, where most planes had to pull up hard and then let off and roll.

=S=

Lunatic

FLYBOYJ · Sep 1, 2005

Lunatic said:
The roll rate of the plane is also critical. To do a good high yo-yo you need to be able to pull up hard and then roll quickly into a firing solution as you dip the nose.

=S=

Lunatic

To a point...

The object is to keep you're energy up, like a roller coaster after to goes down its first hill and has the momentum to climb back up another hill.

elmilitaro · Sep 1, 2005

Hey smokey, nice information.

Smokey · Sep 1, 2005

Thanks elmilitaro

The FW190 had a good roll rate, but did its roll rate fall badly when under G's ?

FLYBOYJ · Sep 1, 2005

Smokey said:
Thanks elmilitaro

The FW190 had a good roll rate, but did its roll rate fall badly when under G's ?

This was discussed on some other threads but from I have read the -190A and Dora had one of the better high speed roll rates of WW2 aircraft. I think some Marks of the Spit were close below say 380 mph.

I feel the roll rate is secondary if you keep "within the egg" when commencing the maneuver. Depending how high you are on top will dictate how many Gs you induce when you unload.

plan_D · Sep 1, 2005

I believe the clipped-wing Spitfires were the closest aircraft to the roll rate of the Fw-190.

cheddar cheese · Sep 2, 2005

Actually P-38L's had the best high speed roll rate.

plan_D · Sep 2, 2005

Define high speed.

wmaxt · Sep 2, 2005

plan_D said:
Define high speed.

The P-38 could roll fairly well and was close to many of the single engined aircraft of the time being 5-10 deg/sec slower with just ailerons. At 325mph the P-38L was about as good as most fighters of the era, by 350mph the P-38L was faster than the Fw-190 and by 450 mph the P-38 was more than 30deg/sec faster than the Fw-190.

At ~290mph the 190 is ~145deg/sec to the 38s ~80deg/sec
At ~325mph the 190 is ~100deg/sec to the 38s ~90deg/sec
At ~350mph the 190 is ~82deg/sec to the 38s ~92deg/sec
At ~450mph the 190 is ~65Deg/sec to the 38s ~98deg/sec

From ~380mph the P-51B was also faster than the 190.

This is off a graph so the numbers are approximate and of course aircraft trim/load will vary the numbers a bit. Also the P-38 was credited with much better roll/turn rates when differental throttals were used.

Before power boosting the 190 was better everywhere. Does anyone have the roll rates of the 109 or the Spit?

wmaxt

Smokey · Sep 2, 2005

What other aircraft apart from the p38 had power boosting?

wmaxt · Sep 2, 2005

Smokey said:
What other aircraft apart from the p38 had power boosting?

I don't think any other plane in WWII had power boosting, even the B-29 had direct controls. The C-69 Lockheed Constalation did (thats where the P-38s controls came from) but was only operational in the late war period and I don't know if it was classified as seen action.

wmaxt

Gnomey · Sep 2, 2005

Nice information Smokey!

elmilitaro · Sep 3, 2005

that was some nice info about the P-38, wmaxt.

FLYBOYJ · Sep 3, 2005

Great stuff wmaxt! And with that, a high yo-yo is a perfect maneuver for a large aircraft, or an aircraft with a "not so great" turning radius....

wmaxt · Sep 3, 2005

Thanks Guys,

I think the P-38 was especialy good at such maneuvers. It was exceptional at high speed short term dives and climbs. The F model was, as reported by the AAF in '43 equal or better than any AAF single engine fighter in turns (the L was much better) and these tactics just enhance those abilities.

wmaxt

FLYBOYJ · Sep 3, 2005

wmaxt said:
Thanks Guys,

I think the P-38 was especialy good at such maneuvers. It was exceptional at high speed short term dives and climbs. The F model was, as reported by the AAF in '43 equal or better than any AAF single engine fighter in turns (the L was much better) and these tactics just enhance those abilities.

wmaxt

Right on - I also understand that this was a common manuever for the P-61 as well!

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