The Italian Guns.

Discussion in 'Weapons Systems Tech.' started by CharlesBronson, Oct 17, 2008.

  1. CharlesBronson

    CharlesBronson Well-Known Member

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    Probably the less know of all the aircraft armament of WW2. This is a topic that I had in my mind for a while, now after collecting some good info I think I am in the conditions to provide a good topic.

    And you know all my my topics are excellent so...:)
     

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  2. claidemore

    claidemore Member

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    For many years now I've had a personal moratorium on ethnically based jokes. So I mean no disrespect to those of Italian ancestry, but ......I did find this one kinda funny. It's a goldieoldie.

    Apparently a surplus dealer had a good quantity of used Italian guns for sale. Story was that they were in very good condition, never been fired, only dropped once. ;)
     
  3. red admiral

    red admiral Member

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    Excellent, I'm looking forwards to this one.
     
  4. comiso90

    comiso90 Active Member

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    Va fangoule!:twisted:
     
  5. B-17engineer

    B-17engineer Active Member

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    Since my parents are mostly Italian heritage I know what that means Cosmiso!! haha :lol:
     
  6. timshatz

    timshatz Active Member

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    An oldie and a goodie. Italian war jokes, there are tons of them.
     
  7. Micdrow

    Micdrow “Archive”
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    Very cool Charles, cant wait to read more.
     
  8. CharlesBronson

    CharlesBronson Well-Known Member

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    Thank you both. By the way my grandmother left Genoa at the age of ten so we are pretty much in the same boat here.

    The FIAT M1928.

    The Fabrica Italiana Automobile Torino ( italian Torino car factory) is one of the Europes biggest car industries and it was in the ww1 one of Italy main suppliers of ground based and aviation machineguns, mostly the design of Revelli.
    After the great war the FIAT created in 1926 a subsidiary devoted exclusively to the machineguns, that was the Societa Anonima Fabrica Armi Torino, or anonymous society Torino guns factory, mostly know as its abreviated S.A.F.A.T designation.

    [​IMG]

    The first aircraft machinegun produced by the S.A.F.A.T was the M1928, this is a scaled up variant of the infantry light M1926, with a belt fed and increased rate of fire.
    However its main change was the adoption of the 8 mm Fiat cartrigde instead the usual M1891 6,5 mm ammunition.

    Worth to mention that the "8mm FIAT" designation was in fact a fancy name for the 7,7x56R, no other than the british .303 cartrigde, both types were completely interchangeable.

    The M1928 was installed in some biplane fighters of the late 1920s and early 1930s, but proven unrealible ( sometimes the case was fractured and parts remains left in the chamber !) and very difficult to synchronizate so it was replaced by the better Breda designs.

    Fiat S.A.F.A.T M1928.

    Caliber: 8 mm Fiat.

    Type of action: mechanically delayed blowback.

    Charging: manually by wire.

    Rate of fire: no less than 720 rpm.

    Lenght: 1250 mm

    Weight: 16.5 kg unloded

    Muzzle velocity: 745 mps.
     
  9. CharlesBronson

    CharlesBronson Well-Known Member

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    FIAT light machinegun mechanism:

    This drawing of the internal components inside the infantry M1926 help to understand the delayed blowback mechanism in the M1928 MG, wich was basically the same.
     

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  10. parsifal

    parsifal Well-Known Member

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    Charles

    very interseting.....where were these guns used? And wuldnt having yet another ammunition type only add to the quartermasters misery???
     
  11. CharlesBronson

    CharlesBronson Well-Known Member

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    The M1928 was put in a few Fiat CR 20 biplane fighters.

    I dont think they had a lot of troubles with the ammo supply of 6,5 and 7,7mm, the italians already have the .303 in use because they purchased several Vickers aircraft guns in WW1.

    Is a logical step to discard the 6,5mm ammunition in aircraft weapon, because is really weak, think that in order to bring down an aircraft with a
    .303 machinegun you need a lot of bullets...now just try to calculate how many hits you need with a 6,5 mm mg.

    Aniway by 1931 the 6,5mm was used just by the army, the Air force used only 7,7mm and 12,7 mm cartrigdes, so the ammunition problem was pretty much over.

    6,5 x 52 - MUNICION.ORG
     
  12. CharlesBronson

    CharlesBronson Well-Known Member

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    Breda S.A.F.A.T 7,7 mm MG.

    [​IMG]

    The italian air force was by late 1920 clearly aware of the limitations of its late Fiat designed Mgs, in order to solve that problem it launched a specification for a new aircraft machinegun in 1929.

    Both Fiat and the Brescia based Breda factory responded the requeriments. but breda 7,7mm machinegun with Browning type of action proven more reliable and lighter.

    Disapointed with its failure to provide to the goverment the FIAT sold it weapons manufacture subsidiary to Breda. For that point and onwards the Breda aircrat machineguns were designated as Breda S.A.F.A.T guns.

    The Breda SAFAT 7,7 mm was a disintegrable link, belt fed, air cooled and recoil operated machinegun. After the trigger is depressed bolt and barrel recoiled togheter for 11 mm, then the bolt is disingaged by a cam milled in the receiver, opening the chamber, extracting, introducing a fresh cartrigde and repeating all the cycle again.

    The gun fired at closed bolt and with a lighter firing pin that the Brownings types, so it was very suitable for synchronizated mountings. Pneumatic charging was provided for wings mounting and some fuselage emplacements.
    It was also very popular as defensive machinegun in bombers and recce airplanes ip to 1942

    Wing mounting in attack aircraft Breda Ba 65.

    [​IMG]


    Wing mounting, Reggiane RE 2001.
     

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  13. CharlesBronson

    CharlesBronson Well-Known Member

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    Two views of the Breda S.A.F.A.T 7,7 mm side defensive emplacements in Fiat RS 14 recce seaplane. Note the neat layout wich included a roof mounted magazine and alluminium container for spent belt links.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Micdrow

    Micdrow “Archive”
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    Very cool Charles, Ive never seen those pictures before.
     
  15. CharlesBronson

    CharlesBronson Well-Known Member

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    That is the idea, to post unseen pictures :) Thank you.

    Breda S.A.F.A.T 7,7mm in defensive turret, Breda Ba 88.

    [​IMG]

    Characteristics Breda S.A.F.A.T cal 7,7 mm

    Caliber : 7,7 mm Breda ( 7,7 x 56R)

    Type of action: short recoil, mascheroni muzzle booster.

    Rate of fire: 800-820 rpm ( 650-680 rpm in synchronizated emplacements)

    Lenght: 1190 mm

    weight 12,5 kg.
     
  16. CharlesBronson

    CharlesBronson Well-Known Member

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    Scotti M1932 cal 7,7 mm.

    The other rifle caliber machinegun used by the Regia Aeronautica was the Scotti gun. The designation is after its designer Alfredo Scotti, however the machinegun was actually manufactured by Isotta-Fraschini, an industrial consortium wich also made luxury cars and aero engines.

    [​IMG]

    Mechanism in the Scotti was operated by gas, with a rotating bolt head for breech operation. The gun fires at open bolt and with higher rate of fire than the Breda SAFAT of the same calibre.

    [​IMG]

    The open bolt system did not qualify for synchronizated mounting so the Scotti was almost exclusively used in flexible defensive emplacements.

    2 views of waist 7,7 mm defensive Scotti MG emplacements in Bomber CANT Z 1007.
     

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  17. CharlesBronson

    CharlesBronson Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the "sticky" :glasses8:

    Scotti ( Isotta Fraschini) M1932 cal 7,7 mm characteristics:

    Action: gas operated, air cooled.

    Rate of fire: 850-880 rpm

    Caliber: 7,7 x 56R

    Lenght: 1120 mm

    Weight: 11.5 kg.

    Muzzle velocity: 740 mps.

    Detail of the ammo supply and used belt/link collector.
     

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  18. Micdrow

    Micdrow “Archive”
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    Your welcome!!!
     
  19. CharlesBronson

    CharlesBronson Well-Known Member

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    You are a man that can recognize quality.8)


    7,7mm x 56R cartrigdes for Breda, Scotti and FIAT light MG.

    Perforante Incendiaria Speciale (al fosforo)

    API steel core bullet with phosphor, 12 grams projectile, muzzle velocity 750 mps. Armor penetration 7 mm at 150 meters.

    [​IMG]


    Perforante Incendiaria Speciale (alla termite)

    API ammunition with explosive filling . 11,8 grams projectile, muzzle velocity 755 mps.

    [​IMG]


    7,7 Breda da osservazione

    Observation round, actually an explosive with nose fuse, this is more or less a italian version of the B-patrone used by the Luftwaffe.

    [​IMG]


    7,7 Breda tracciante luminosa.

    A full metal jacket bullet with very bright tracer in base for day use. Muzzle velocity 760mps.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. paolomiana

    paolomiana New Member

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    Hi CharlesBronson, guess this pic could be interesting too...

    Paolo

    PS dear Comiso90 may I join the "Va fangoule! club" ?
     

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