Propoganda maybe...?
It has been disclaimed over and over. The Fork Tailed Devil is a myth.
The Luftwaffe Expertens' Opinions
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Propoganda maybe...?
It has been disclaimed over and over. The Fork Tailed Devil is a myth.
Junkers88A1
Staff Sergeant
ok. i guess you are right !
Thanks for posting the interview, appreciated.
Here's a list of American fighter aces from WWII, with 20 or more kills to their credit (there are slight tally differences on different sites, I don't mean for this to become a disagreement of personal kill totals, I just picked one source). I looked up the U.S. pilots, their victory totals, aircraft used and branch of service. I've broken down the aircraft used into two categories: A) early war production fighter planes (P-38, P-39, P-40, F4F Wildcat) and B) late war production fighter planes consisting of the P-38, P-47, P-51, F4U Corsair, F4F Hellcat. There's always an exception, with a Hurricane and a couple of Spitfires in the mix.
Name • Victories • Aircraft • Branch
*
Maj. Richard I. Bong • 40 • P-38 • USAAF
Maj. Thomas B. McGuire • 38 • P-38 • USAAF
Capt. David McCampbell • 34 • F6F Hellcat • U.S. Navy
Maj. Francis S. Gabreski • 28 • P-47 • USAAF
Maj. Robert S. Johnson • 27 • P-47 • USAAF
Col. Charles H. MacDonald • 27 • P-38 • USAAF
Maj. George E. Preddy • 26.83 • (P-40) P-51 • USAAF
Maj. Joseph J. Foss • 26 • (F4F Wildcat) F4U Corsair • U.S. Marine Corps
1st Lt. Robert M. Hanson • 25 • F4U Corsair • U.S. Marine Corps
W/Cmdr. Lance C. Wade • 25 • (Hurricane, Spitfire) • RAF
Maj. Gregory Boyington • 24 • (P-40) F4U Corsair • U.S. Marine Corps
Lt. Col. John C. Meyer • 24 • P-47, P-51 • USAAF
Lt. Cecil E. Harris • 23 • (F4F Wildcat) F6F Hellcat • U.S. Navy
Lt. Eugene A. Valencia • 23 • F6F Hellcat • U.S. Navy
Col. David C. Schilling • 22.5 • P-47 • USAAF
Col. Gerald R. Johnson • 22 • (P-39, P-40) P-38 • USAAF
Col. Neel E. Kearby • 22 • P-47 • USAAF
Maj. Jay T. Robbins • 22 • (P-39) P-38 • USAAF
Capt. Dominic S. Gentile • 22 • (Spitfire) P-47, P-51 • USAAF
Capt. Fred J. Christensen • 21.5 • P-47 • USAAF
Maj. Raymond S. Wetmore • 21.25 • P-51 • USAAF
Capt. Kenneth Walsh • 21 • F4U Corsair • U.S. Marine Corps
Capt. John J. Voll • 21 • P-51 • USAAF
Lt. Col. Walker M. Mahurin • 20.83 • P-47, P-51 • USAAF
Capt. Donald N. Aldrich • 20 • F4U Corsair • U.S. Marine Corps
Col. Thomas J. Lynch • 20 • (P-39) P-38 • USAAF
Lt. Col. Robert Westbrook • 20 • (P-40) P-38 • USAAF
The idea was to count up how often each late war U.S. production fighter was used among the top American aces. There are 27 names here, but I'll remove Lance Wade from the equation as he flew with the RAF using British aircraft. I've bracketed the early war production planes (P-39, P-40, F4F Wildcat, and the British aircraft) and am not counting those. If a pilot used two different late model fighters (Meyer, Gentile and Mahurin for example), then I've counted each type with a 1/2 point. Not including Wade, of the remaining 26 aces:
P-38 is listed: 7 times
P-47 is listed: 6-1/2 times
F4U is listed: 5 times
P-51 is listed: 4-1/2 times
F6F is listed: 3 times
Just to note, the P-38 holds three of the top six spots, with 105 kills of the 194 destroyed by the top six aces.
To quote the interviewer speaking with Steinhoff, "Of all the Allied fighters you encountered, which was the most difficult to handle with a good pilot at the controls?" Every WWII fighter had it's strengths and weaknesses, as they've been discussed in innumberable threads here... turning radius this, dive speed that, altitude performance here, firepower there, etc. The Lightning was no different, being better at some things, limited in others. Pilot competence was one part of the interviewer's question. Steinhoff's answer seems to take that into account, and perhaps he saw (experienced) some of the dangers a Lighting brought to a fight when it was in the hands of a skilled pilot. Quoting Wiki on the P-38 "Clustering all the armament in the nose was unlike most other U.S. aircraft which used wing-mounted guns with trajectories set up to crisscross at one or more points in a "convergence zone." Guns mounted in the nose did not suffer from having their useful ranges limited by pattern convergence, meaning good pilots could shoot much farther. A Lightning could reliably hit targets at any range up to 1,000*yards (910*m), whereas other fighters had to pick a single convergence range between 100 and 250*yards (230*m). The clustered weapons had a "buzz saw" effect on any target at the receiving end, making the aircraft effective for strafing as well."
"Good pilots could shoot much farther." Steinhoff mentions being shot down from long range by a P-38 in 1944, and I would think he had no defense against that. The Me-262 wasn't the war's perfect fighter, taking into account it's limited range, short engine life, sluggish acceleration and average handling. But with it's high top speed and clustered nose cannon it was certainly a dangerous plane with a capable pilot at the controls. If you were flying a P-47 this very moment in WWII, and you and a good German pilot spotted each other from a mile away, would you rather the German be in a Bf-109 or a Me-262? I think this is part of the context of Steinhoff's answer. Aside from the P-38s handling and speed (which he compliments) the P-38 had an extended firing range. Put that advantage into the hands of a good pilot....
For the fork-tailed devil discussion, I mentioned that nickname once to a German friend of mine about 20 years ago. His father had been a soldier in the Wehrmacht, and the father had told him they called the P-38 "man jaeger" (man hunter). The reason being, was that pilots of some P-38s would strafe individual soldiers caught out in the open, even if it were a single man crossing a field. I imagine they would because of their armament being in the nose without a convergence pattern. They wouldn't have to wait for the right range to pick off an individual man, just make sure they had him in line. My friend's father considered the P-38 as the last plane he wanted to see strafing his position.
Here's a list of American fighter aces from WWII, with 20 or more kills to their credit (there are slight tally differences on different sites, I don't mean for this to become a disagreement of personal kill totals, I just picked one source). I looked up the U.S. pilots, their victory totals, aircraft used and branch of service. I've broken down the aircraft used into two categories: A) early war production fighter planes (P-38, P-39, P-40, F4F Wildcat) and B) late war production fighter planes consisting of the P-38, P-47, P-51, F4U Corsair, F4F Hellcat. There's always an exception, with a Hurricane and a couple of Spitfires in the mix.
Name • Victories • Aircraft • Branch
*
Maj. Richard I. Bong • 40 • P-38 • USAAF
Maj. Thomas B. McGuire • 38 • P-38 • USAAF
Capt. David McCampbell • 34 • F6F Hellcat • U.S. Navy
Maj. Francis S. Gabreski • 28 • P-47 • USAAF
Maj. Robert S. Johnson • 27 • P-47 • USAAF
Col. Charles H. MacDonald • 27 • P-38 • USAAF
Maj. George E. Preddy • 26.83 • (P-40) P-51 • USAAF
Maj. Joseph J. Foss • 26 • (F4F Wildcat) F4U Corsair • U.S. Marine Corps
1st Lt. Robert M. Hanson • 25 • F4U Corsair • U.S. Marine Corps
W/Cmdr. Lance C. Wade • 25 • (Hurricane, Spitfire) • RAF
Maj. Gregory Boyington • 24 • (P-40) F4U Corsair • U.S. Marine Corps
Lt. Col. John C. Meyer • 24 • P-47, P-51 • USAAF
Lt. Cecil E. Harris • 23 • (F4F Wildcat) F6F Hellcat • U.S. Navy
Lt. Eugene A. Valencia • 23 • F6F Hellcat • U.S. Navy
Col. David C. Schilling • 22.5 • P-47 • USAAF
Col. Gerald R. Johnson • 22 • (P-39, P-40) P-38 • USAAF
Col. Neel E. Kearby • 22 • P-47 • USAAF
Maj. Jay T. Robbins • 22 • (P-39) P-38 • USAAF
Capt. Dominic S. Gentile • 22 • (Spitfire) P-47, P-51 • USAAF
Capt. Fred J. Christensen • 21.5 • P-47 • USAAF
Maj. Raymond S. Wetmore • 21.25 • P-51 • USAAF
Capt. Kenneth Walsh • 21 • F4U Corsair • U.S. Marine Corps
Capt. John J. Voll • 21 • P-51 • USAAF
Lt. Col. Walker M. Mahurin • 20.83 • P-47, P-51 • USAAF
Capt. Donald N. Aldrich • 20 • F4U Corsair • U.S. Marine Corps
Col. Thomas J. Lynch • 20 • (P-39) P-38 • USAAF
Lt. Col. Robert Westbrook • 20 • (P-40) P-38 • USAAF
The idea was to count up how often each late war U.S. production fighter was used among the top American aces. There are 27 names here, but I'll remove Lance Wade from the equation as he flew with the RAF using British aircraft. I've bracketed the early war production planes (P-39, P-40, F4F Wildcat, and the British aircraft) and am not counting those. If a pilot used two different late model fighters (Meyer, Gentile and Mahurin for example), then I've counted each type with a 1/2 point. Not including Wade, of the remaining 26 aces:
P-38 is listed: 7 times
P-47 is listed: 6-1/2 times
F4U is listed: 5 times
P-51 is listed: 4-1/2 times
F6F is listed: 3 times
Just to note, the P-38 holds three of the top six spots, with 105 kills of the 194 destroyed by the top six aces.
To quote the interviewer speaking with Steinhoff, "Of all the Allied fighters you encountered, which was the most difficult to handle with a good pilot at the controls?" Every WWII fighter had it's strengths and weaknesses, as they've been discussed in innumberable threads here... turning radius this, dive speed that, altitude performance here, firepower there, etc. The Lightning was no different, being better at some things, limited in others. Pilot competence was one part of the interviewer's question. Steinhoff's answer seems to take that into account, and perhaps he saw (experienced) some of the dangers a Lighting brought to a fight when it was in the hands of a skilled pilot. Quoting Wiki on the P-38 "Clustering all the armament in the nose was unlike most other U.S. aircraft which used wing-mounted guns with trajectories set up to crisscross at one or more points in a "convergence zone." Guns mounted in the nose did not suffer from having their useful ranges limited by pattern convergence, meaning good pilots could shoot much farther. A Lightning could reliably hit targets at any range up to 1,000*yards (910*m), whereas other fighters had to pick a single convergence range between 100 and 250*yards (230*m). The clustered weapons had a "buzz saw" effect on any target at the receiving end, making the aircraft effective for strafing as well."
"Good pilots could shoot much farther." Steinhoff mentions being shot down from long range by a P-38 in 1944, and I would think he had no defense against that. The Me-262 wasn't the war's perfect fighter, taking into account it's limited range, short engine life, sluggish acceleration and average handling. But with it's high top speed and clustered nose cannon it was certainly a dangerous plane with a capable pilot at the controls. If you were flying a P-47 this very moment in WWII, and you and a good German pilot spotted each other from a mile away, would you rather the German be in a Bf-109 or a Me-262? I think this is part of the context of Steinhoff's answer. Aside from the P-38s handling and speed (which he compliments) the P-38 had an extended firing range. Put that advantage into the hands of a good pilot....
For the fork-tailed devil discussion, I mentioned that nickname once to a German friend of mine about 20 years ago. His father had been a soldier in the Wehrmacht, and the father had told him they called the P-38 "man jaeger" (man hunter). The reason being, was that pilots of some P-38s would strafe individual soldiers caught out in the open, even if it were a single man crossing a field. I imagine they would because of their armament being in the nose without a convergence pattern. They wouldn't have to wait for the right range to pick off an individual man, just make sure they had him in line. My friend's father considered the P-38 as the last plane he wanted to see strafing his position.
Colin1
Senior Master Sergeant
Two decimal places?
How do you get to .83 of a kill?
Colin1
Senior Master Sergeant
Or a tad over 4/5...
Presumably then, a kill shared amongst 6 (or 5) aircraft
renrich
Chief Master Sergeant
Those top two P38 aces were in the PTO where it probably was easier going than in the ETO. The kills of Joe Foss were all, I think, with the F4F4 and under horrible conditions at Guadalcanal and against early war IJN pilots. That has to add a lot of luster to his record.
As I said, I didn't want this to be sidetracked into a discussion about kill totals (or percentage points of kill totals). I wasn't around during the war, I wasn't in charge of tracking kills or keeping historical count. I'm going by what's out there, and whether some pilots should have their numbers raised or lowered by a few isn't my focus with this topic.
Steinhoff made an interesting comment about the P-38, and since he was there and I wasn't, I did a little background to see why he might have made the comment he did. I've always appreciated the beauty of the P-38, but have never given it serious enough credit for the capabilities it had. In the latter part of the war its engine reliability and tail compressibility problems had been solved. It was almost the first "jet" in terms of running into certain design limitations in the face of higher and higher speeds. That it was the only American fighter to be produced from Pearl Harbor until VJ Day says even more about how good the original design was.
I'm kinda looking at the P-38 again the way I did when I first discovered it as a kid.
Kurfürst
Staff Sergeant
The other common LW nick for the heavies - Möbelwagen, or furniture van - was also used by Hungarians (bútorszállító). Probably got the terminus technicus from their LW collegues.
That's my guess, though on checking the pilot's notes again I see the term used is "Forked Devil". Date of publication is 1 August 1945.
Junkers88A1
Staff Sergeant
I know the germans had lots of nicknames on aircrafts..including their own..
like the Ju 88 was named "Die-Drei Finger 88 " ( three fingers 88 )
The He 111 was named the "der 111 spaten" the 111 spade
and the Do 17 was named the "der Fliegende bleistift "
Ju 52 ( die Kasten Ju ) the Ju box ??
sorces Deutche, Italieniche, Britische-Amerikanische und sowjetische Kriegsflugzeuge 1942 RLM ( recognitionbook for german, italien, english-american and soviet combataircrafts )
and the handley pag hamden is called " Die kaulquappen-hamden " whatever that means..and the B-17 is named the "Fortress 1 "
to bad the P-38 lighning is not present..as that would have given some light on the matter
and they call the B-17 the
like the Ju 88 was named "Die-Drei Finger 88 " ( three fingers 88 )
The He 111 was named the "der 111 spaten" the 111 spade
and the Do 17 was named the "der Fliegende bleistift "
Ju 52 ( die Kasten Ju ) the Ju box ??
sorces Deutche, Italieniche, Britische-Amerikanische und sowjetische Kriegsflugzeuge 1942 RLM ( recognitionbook for german, italien, english-american and soviet combataircrafts )
and the handley pag hamden is called " Die kaulquappen-hamden " whatever that means..and the B-17 is named the "Fortress 1 "
to bad the P-38 lighning is not present..as that would have given some light on the matter
and they call the B-17 the
Junkers88A1
Staff Sergeant
Hesekiel
Airman 1st Class
Oh Guttorm.. There is a name for the Lightning!
They was called "Gabelschwanzteufel"
Means "fork tail devil"
For the P-47 Thunderbolt was the Nick
"Trunkenbold"
means "drunkard"
They was called "Gabelschwanzteufel"
Means "fork tail devil"
For the P-47 Thunderbolt was the Nick
"Trunkenbold"
means "drunkard"
Hesekiel
Airman 1st Class
And another one...
(not so friendly... sorry british friends!)
The Hurricane was called
"Hurenkahn"
means
"bitch hooker"
(not so friendly... sorry british friends!)
The Hurricane was called
"Hurenkahn"
means
"bitch hooker"
drgondog
Major
The Fortress I was the B-17C/D which only flew briefly with RAF
Hi Junkers,
>I know the germans had lots of nicknames on aircrafts..including their own..
like the Ju 88 was named "Die-Drei Finger 88 " ( three fingers 88 )
These were official reporting names, including obvious visual characteristics into some (not all) aircraft's designations to facilitate recognition and reporting. The Me 109E was to be recorded as "square 109" according to an earlier manual, while the Me 109F was to be called "round 109".
>and the handley pag hamden is called " Die kaulquappen-hamden " whatever that means..
"The Tadpole Hampden", a reference to the fuselage shape.
>to bad the P-38 lighning is not present..as that would have given some light on the matter
Too bad I have misplaced my copy of that booklet, which might be a later edition - I'm sure the P-38 was in there. The reporting name was "zweischwänzige Lightning" if I recall correctly, "two-tailed Lightning".
Sounds, well, not completely different from "fork-tailed devil"
(By the way, these official RLM booklets show that the Me 109 was referred to as "Me 109". This should come as a blow to those who think only "Bf 109" is the correct designation. Likewise, "Me 109" was also used in the RLM's official propaganda magazine "Der Adler".)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
>I know the germans had lots of nicknames on aircrafts..including their own..
like the Ju 88 was named "Die-Drei Finger 88 " ( three fingers 88 )
These were official reporting names, including obvious visual characteristics into some (not all) aircraft's designations to facilitate recognition and reporting. The Me 109E was to be recorded as "square 109" according to an earlier manual, while the Me 109F was to be called "round 109".
>and the handley pag hamden is called " Die kaulquappen-hamden " whatever that means..
"The Tadpole Hampden", a reference to the fuselage shape.
>to bad the P-38 lighning is not present..as that would have given some light on the matter
Too bad I have misplaced my copy of that booklet, which might be a later edition - I'm sure the P-38 was in there. The reporting name was "zweischwänzige Lightning" if I recall correctly, "two-tailed Lightning".
Sounds, well, not completely different from "fork-tailed devil"
(By the way, these official RLM booklets show that the Me 109 was referred to as "Me 109". This should come as a blow to those who think only "Bf 109" is the correct designation. Likewise, "Me 109" was also used in the RLM's official propaganda magazine "Der Adler".)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
Junkers88A1
Staff Sergeant
you are right Ho hun as some here says the fork tail devil is a myth..but if the official name was called "two tail lighning" i am sure some germans easily changed that on airfields to fork tailed devil Gabelschwanzteufel
and you are right that the Me 109 is the correct term during the war..my book says the same
Gabelschwanzteufeland you are right that the Me 109 is the correct term during the war..my book says the same
