The ME 109 Air to Air Kills - How many? 50,000?

[tigercub]

I know the JG52 shot down 10,000 planes flying Me109s and during the battle of Britain ME 109s shot down at least 600 or more so how many?did this plane shot down 50,000 planes?
A question i have wanted to know for a very long time and i do know the answer will never be fully known but would love input from you guys.
The russians lost 104,000 planes in WW2,
Tiger!

 

[Thorlifter]

Here is what one website says........

http://www.tsj.net/avstats/losses.html

but I'm questioning how valid it is. I know someone will have some different statistics.

 

[tigercub]

Here is what one website says........

Losses

but I'm questioning how valid it is. I know someone will have some different statistics.

i am looking for answers not negatives,The website was good thanks different statistics yes Russians have Admitted to 106,400 to all loses in WW2 ,and a guy from the US did a long ten year study! to find there losses 45,000 to all causes.

Tiger!

 

[Watanbe]

I doubt the me109 would of had 50,000 kills. That is a huge number!

 

[VG-33]

I know the JG52 shot down 10,000 planes flying Me109s and during the battle of Britain ME 109s shot down at least 600 or more so how many?did this plane shot down 50,000 planes?
A question i have wanted to know for a very long time and i do know the answer will never be fully known but would love input from you guys.
The russians lost 104,000 planes in WW2,
Tiger!

Correction please. JG 52 claimed more than 10 000 planes flying the 109. How many did they really shoted down is another question.

I don't have the real proportion in Russian pilots in other soviet nationalities (65-75% ?) Ukrainian, Bielorussian, Tatars, Ouzbeks, Georgians, Armenians...It's just a matter of minimal culture, in you post.

Soviets lost 103 600 planes but only 46 100 in front-line units in accidents, w-off for battle damages, destroyed on the ground, shoted by Luft or Flak, and missed in action.

The ~ 58 000 others on the rear, about 15%-25% to accidents or incidents, 85-75% w-off for wear (natural or planned attrition), especially due to engines short life.

Regards

 

[tigercub]

I not saying the ME109 did shot down 50,000 planes but from losses of WW2 planes fighting Germany(i guess 150,000planes) and that it was the main fighter for Germany was for all of WW2 was the ME109(33-35,000 made) leads to one big number how many well?

"Aircraft losses
Finland: Reported losses during the Winter War totaled 67, of which 42 were operational, while 536 aircraft were lost during the Continuation War, of which 209 were operational losses. (Overall 603).[1]
France: From the beginning of the war until the capitulation of France in 1940, 892 aircraft were lost, of which 413 were in action and 234 were on the ground. Losses included 508 fighters and 218 bombers.(Overall 892)[1]
Germany: Estimated total losses for the war totaled 27,875 aircraft, of which 7,000 were total losses and the remainder significantly damaged. By type, losses totaled 4,452 fighters, 2,037 bombers, 5,428 trainers, 1,221 twin-engine fighters, 8,548 ground attack, 3,733 reconnaissance, and 3,141 transports.[1]
Italy: Total losses were 5,272 aircraft, of which 3,269 were lost in combat.
Japan: Estimates vary from 35,000 to 50,000 total losses, with about 20,000 lost operationally.[2]
Netherlands: Total losses were 81 aircraft during the May, 1940 campaign.[2]
Poland: Total losses were 398 destroyed, including 116 fighters, 112 dive bombers, 81 reconnaissance aircraft, 36 bombers, 21 sea planes, and 9 transports.[2]
Soviet Union: Total losses were over 106,400 including 88,300 combat types.[3]
United Kingdom: Total losses in Europe were 22,010, including 10,045 fighters and 11,965 bombers. (This figure does not include aircraft lost in Asia or the Pacific.)[2]
United States: Total losses were nearly 45,000, including 22,951 operational losses (18,418 in Europe and 4,533 in the Pacific) this was from one of the guys here.
I don`t have the answer only the question but it is interesting.

Tiger!

 

[drgondog]

I not saying the ME109 did shot down 50,000 planes but from losses of WW2 planes fighting Germany(i guess 150,000planes) and that it was the main fighter for Germany was for all of WW2 was the ME109(33-35,000 made) leads to one big number how many well?

"Aircraft losses
Finland: Reported losses during the Winter War totaled 67, of which 42 were operational, while 536 aircraft were lost during the Continuation War, of which 209 were operational losses. (Overall 603).[1]
France: From the beginning of the war until the capitulation of France in 1940, 892 aircraft were lost, of which 413 were in action and 234 were on the ground. Losses included 508 fighters and 218 bombers.(Overall 892)[1]
Germany: Estimated total losses for the war totaled 27,875 aircraft, of which 7,000 were total losses and the remainder significantly damaged. By type, losses totaled 4,452 fighters, 2,037 bombers, 5,428 trainers, 1,221 twin-engine fighters, 8,548 ground attack, 3,733 reconnaissance, and 3,141 transports.[1]
Italy: Total losses were 5,272 aircraft, of which 3,269 were lost in combat.
Japan: Estimates vary from 35,000 to 50,000 total losses, with about 20,000 lost operationally.[2]
Netherlands: Total losses were 81 aircraft during the May, 1940 campaign.[2]
Poland: Total losses were 398 destroyed, including 116 fighters, 112 dive bombers, 81 reconnaissance aircraft, 36 bombers, 21 sea planes, and 9 transports.[2]
Soviet Union: Total losses were over 106,400 including 88,300 combat types.[3]
United Kingdom: Total losses in Europe were 22,010, including 10,045 fighters and 11,965 bombers. (This figure does not include aircraft lost in Asia or the Pacific.)[2]
United States: Total losses were nearly 45,000, including 22,951 operational losses (18,418 in Europe and 4,533 in the Pacific) this was from one of the guys here.
I don`t have the answer only the question but it is interesting.

Tiger!

What are your sources for Germany and USSR

 

[Vincenzo]

Germany: Estimated total losses for the war totaled 27,875 aircraft, of which 7,000 were total losses and the remainder significantly damaged. By type, losses totaled 4,452 fighters, 2,037 bombers, 5,428 trainers, 1,221 twin-engine fighters, 8,548 ground attack, 3,733 reconnaissance, and 3,141 transports.[1]

this data are clearly wrong only in '44 luftwaff lost 8000 single engined fighter for enemy actions

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/44-fighter-lost-17500.html


also other nation loss are to check, only usaac/usaaf lost 22948 aircrafts on combat mission (from january '42) for a total loss 41575 overseas (need add incidents in continent) navy lost 8595 aircraft in unit in operations (so include incidents for the unit when they are on "tour" but no incident when they are in "resting", and don't include incident of not combat units)

 

[stasoid]

Germany: Estimated total losses for the war totaled 27,875 aircraft, of which 7,000 were total losses and the remainder significantly damaged[1]

From 1939 to 1945 Germany produced 120.000 military aircrafts. If 27.875 of them were lost, what happened to the other 90.000?
Aliens rented and flew them to Mars, right?

 

[tigercub]

From 1939 to 1945 Germany produced 120.000 military aircraft. If 27.875 of them were lost, what happened to the other 90.000?
Aliens rented and flew them to Mars, right?

This are not my stats i got them for this site some guy posted and i am not claiming that there Real.

Tiger!

 

[tigercub]

This is about how many Aircraft the ME109 Shot down i was trying to get an estimate from the knowledge you guys have and can find out i am really thinking the number would be some were from 25,000-50,000 planes given the losses in ww2 to Germany.

Tiger!

 

[VG-33]

What are your sources for Germany and USSR

He uses Krivosheiev's sources.

In reality it sounds like thay

on 22/06/41 red army had 32 100 (17 900 combat planes) planes

on 10 may 1945 : 64 200 (47 300)

Between those days RA recieved altogether 138 500 soviet and foreign planes (77 500)

So the losses were 170 600-64 200 = 106 400 for all reason, include natural wear an tear.

So by no way it should be compared with american german, english, german data. The good point it's that soviet losses list is complete, since balance~ 0.


Regards

VG-33

 

[drgondog]

He uses Krivosheiev's sources.

In reality it sounds like thay

on 22/06/41 red army had 32 100 (17 900 combat planes) planes

on 10 may 1945 : 64 200 (47 300)

Between those days RA recieved altogether 138 500 soviet and foreign planes (77 500)

So the losses were 170 600-64 200 = 106 400 for all reason, include natural wear an tear.

So by no way it should be compared with american german, english, german data. The good point it's that soviet losses list is complete, since balance~ 0.


Regards

VG-33

I agree the inventory balance approsach for total losses. The more interesting number is a relatively accurate separation of losses by category (air to air; ops-weather, mechanical, fuel; flak, starfing; accidents)

I have spent a LOT of reaearch time just extracting 8th AF Fighter Command - which is by far the best documented of US awards/losses.

The LW records are spotty in latter part of war - and it is not easy getting losses of all types - particularly when squadrons were reporting more along the lines of MIA/KIA/WIA rather than a/c lost

 

[Jabberwocky]

I know the JG52 shot down 10,000 planes flying Me109s and during the battle of Britain ME 109s shot down at least 600 or more so how many?did this plane shot down 50,000 planes?
A question i have wanted to know for a very long time and i do know the answer will never be fully known but would love input from you guys.
The russians lost 104,000 planes in WW2,
Tiger!

Given the inconclusive and often unquantifiable (not to mention contradictory) nature of many (most) estimates of claims and kill statistics in WW2 aviation (not to mention the incompleteness of early RAF and late Luftwaffe statistics), I suspect any figure for total 109 kills will be :

A) Such a compilation of educated guesswork as to be meaningless;
B) Wildly divergent, depending on who makes the estimate and what kill/loss estimates are used.

Some major stumbling blocks in the potential data:

• The USAAF attributes only about 1/3rd of losses in WW2 to enemy aircraft, and (understandably) doesn't break out losses by enemy aircraft type. The USAAF lost ~18,400 aircraft operating in theaters against the Germans. But in the same theaters they were also operating (to a lesser extent, admittedly) against the Italians, Romanians, Hungarians and other smaller airforces;
• Most RAF bomber losses (about 8,900 losses) were to night fighters and flak, rather than day fighters. A strong proportion of their losses (36%) were to unknown causes.
• About 45% of the RAF's Fighter Command's (and later 2TAF) operational daylight losses were attributed to flak, about 20% to operational accidents and other causes, meaning (again) enemy fighters and bombers defensive guns were responsible for about a third of total losses.
  Russian losses will be particularly hard to quantify. Loss estimates for Russian aircraft vary from 80,000 to 120,000, with three general schools of thought (low case of 79,000-85,000 losses, middle case of 97,000-105,000 losses and upper case of about 110,000-120,000 losses [possibly including Spain and Manchuria])

As a hypothetical, if we assume that the Bf109 accounted for two thirds of all DAYLIGHT kills of Germany's WW2 opponents, and that fighters accounted for 33-35% of total daylight aircraft losses, then all you need to do is get a (gu)esstimate of total daylight losses of Germany's enemies, and multiply it by approximately .2 to find your answer. You would also have to add 109 kills by the Finns, Hungarians, Romanians and Italians.

Simple

 

[tigercub]

Something like 10,000 UK US and 20,000 Soviet. Simple

 

[VG-33]

I agree the inventory balance approsach for total losses. The more interesting number is a relatively accurate separation of losses by category (air to air; ops-weather, mechanical, fuel; flak, starfing; accidents)

It will be difficult, so for instance for 1944 year, the VVS KA, (without other soviet air forces as VVS VMF-fleet air force, VVS PVO-Anti - aircraf defense air forces, ADD - long range AF, GVF -civilian, DOOSAAF -etc...) lost 19 379 combat planes of all reasons. From gen Alexeïenko datas

- 7 973 written off in front line units due to combat action
- 2 462 WO in front LU for accidents
- 3 149 WO in FLU for wear (overpassing engine or airfraime TBO)

- the others 5795 were written off in rear line units (training ,-schools, strategical reserve..)

- 63 missed in action or due to combat (taxying an airplane to front line units from rear airports was considered as a war mission)
- 1 288 WO in accidents
- 4 444 WO for wear

We can also say that in 1944 soviet airforce lost 5 700 non - combat planes,
- but 700 of them for combat reasons. It was such planes as Polikarpov Po-2, R-5, Li-2 used in night bombing-intruder missions.

The problem with 7 973 lost in combat plane, is that 70-75% were lost for unknown reasons (MIA). Some others sources quoted only 7 286 planes, since a lot of them MIA, were founded afterwards in neighbour's airbases in safe conditions, or just force-launded on the ground with little damage, and returned to service then.

In conclusion, we will never know even approched numbers of soviet aircraft shot by the Luft in general, and Me-109 in particular case.Just speculative exercises with any kind of intersest, but some have obviously time to waste...


VG-33

 

[drgondog]

It will be difficult, so for instance for 1944 year, the VVS KA, (without other soviet air forces as VVS VMF-fleet air force, VVS PVO-Anti - aircraf defense air forces, ADD - long range AF, GVF -civilian, DOOSAAF -etc...) lost 19 379 combat planes of all reasons. From gen Alexeïenko datas

- 7 973 written off in front line units due to combat action
- 2 462 WO in front LU for accidents
- 3 149 WO in FLU for wear (overpassing engine or airfraime TBO)

- the others 5795 were written off in rear line units (training ,-schools, strategical reserve..)

- 63 missed in action or due to combat (taxying an airplane to front line units from rear airports was considered as a war mission)
- 1 288 WO in accidents
- 4 444 WO for wear

We can also say that in 1944 soviet airforce lost 5 700 non - combat planes,
- but 700 of them for combat reasons. It was such planes as Polikarpov Po-2, R-5, Li-2 used in night bombing-intruder missions.

The problem with 7 973 lost in combat plane, is that 70-75% were lost for unknown reasons (MIA). Some others sources quoted only 7 286 planes, since a lot of them MIA, were founded afterwards in neighbour's airbases in safe conditions, or just force-launded on the ground with little damage, and returned to service then.

In conclusion, we will never know even approched numbers of soviet aircraft shot by the Luft in general, and Me-109 in particular case.Just speculative exercises with any kind of intersest, but some have obviously time to waste...


VG-33

I totally agree the magnitude of the task, as well as the impossibility of getting trul accurate 'dispositions' - particularly USSR. Even the ETO is a daunting task and I have just recently finished 8th AF FC which still has a signifificant % of MIA-Unknown cause for A/c and pilots never found or remain unrecognized - same for Luftwaffe.

I have resorted to splitting Unknown into UNK-A where German fighters were observed in the air in proximity to the MIA pilot, UNK-S where a pilot flew into trees or ground and it was unclear whther it was a loss of control or flak so I placed them into UNK-STRAFING, etc, etc.

 

[tigercub]

Thanks guys for your input i have all ways known the number would never be known because of the very nature of WW2 and the records kept a loose guess is all i can expect.
Really all things said and done i wanted to underline the Fact the ME109 made a big mark in History but only to the few who really Read aviation History know this.
The winners made history and the loses were lost in it,hence the reason the Me109 was not rated any better than a P40 in the eyes of many people...But it was as good or even better than the spitfire and the Spitfire has some god like figure over people Because of the battle of Britain.(were it saved them from a invasion that was never going to happen)

Tiger!



Tiger!