Groundhog Thread v. 2.0 - The most important battle of WW2

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Ok . . .if I may sum up the situation . . .

In order for Sealion to have been succesful . . .
1. German high command would have had to have avoided the blunders made duing the BoB (namely shifting to London instead of RAF targets)
2. The RAF would have had to have been effectively neutralized
3. The RN would have had to have been virtually anihilated
4. Germany would have had to have developed landing craft suitable for open water
5. Some form of large amphibious ship would have had to have been developed in order for Wermacht heavy equipment to be landed ashore
6. The US would have had to have remained completely neutral
7. The German forces would have had to have sustained a massive logistical operation by air and sea
8. The most determined foe yet faced by Germany would have had to have been defeated defending its own turf

4 and 5 would have required German industry to focus on such craft at over a year earlier. Craft they had no experiance in building. This would have seriously detracted from other parts of the German military machine, most notably armor and aircraft. A huge investment in a weapon that is only useful IF France falls easily, and which significantly diminishes the likelyhood of that happening.

I don't think Germany had the industrial capacity to build such an invasion fleet, it was all already used building tanks and aircraft.

=S=

Lunatic

And with this I agree fully. I agree with every point you just made Lighting Guy and I dont think Germany could have achieved all of these things. 1 and 2 could have been attained had the Germans not screwed up the BoB by trying to destroy London. 3 I think would have completely unattainable and even Hitler new this, he was scared to commit his ships even the Bismark and the Tirpitz to battle with the Royal Navy. 4 and 5 could have been attainable however as RG_Lunatic said they would have required planning and building years before the invasion was to take place and this would have required it being done before the war even started and I think Hitler was hoping for peace with England as was stated by several people. With 6, as stated by RG_Lunatic I dont the US would have stayed completely Neutral, but I dont think it would have come to this because the British would not have needed the US based on the facts taht 1 through 5 were not obtained. With 7 as I have stated in other posts, I dont think the logistical problems ever could have been solved especially with the Royal Navy and the RAF still in operation. Lastley with 8 that would have been the biggest problem if they had even reached the shores. The British fighting for there homeland on there home turf would have been fierce and an extremely tough foe. Soldiers protecting there homeland have something to fight for and are fighting with heart. The Germans would not have had this, they would have just been invading a country like the others they had done.

 

[Lightning Guy]

Well, there are some exceptions to defending home turf (the French in 1940 and the Italians in 1943). But I don't think the British would have been in this catergory. Churchill's "you can always take one with you possibly" certainly summed up the outlook of the British population. Had the Germans invaded England, they most likely would have faced a situation not unlike that awaiting American troops had they invaded the Japanese mainland.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

to damn right!!! we've become rather accustomed to not being inavaded, we don't take kindly to invasions, every man able to weild a gun (including some trained soldiers from WWI) would be sitting on the coast, waiting for the germans, then burst out laughing as the few that made it across climbing out of their civillian barges getting shot at and bombed by the RAF, being torn apart by the RN and getting cut to shreads by barbed wire...............

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Well, there are some exceptions to defending home turf (the French in 1940 and the Italians in 1943). But I don't think the British would have been in this catergory. Churchill's "you can always take one with you possibly" certainly summed up the outlook of the British population. Had the Germans invaded England, they most likely would have faced a situation not unlike that awaiting American troops had they invaded the Japanese mainland.

I agree with you fully. The French completley underestimated the Germans and put to much emphasis on the Maginot Line (my spelling is terrible i think). The Italians on the other hand were pretty much fed up with Mussolini and wanted the Germans out. If the Germans had made it into England the British would have been able to stop it, and then the Stalin would have invaded from the East and it would have all been over.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

to damn right!!! we've become rather accustomed to not being inavaded, we don't take kindly to invasions, every man able to weild a gun (including some trained soldiers from WWI) would be sitting on the coast, waiting for the germans, then burst out laughing as the few that made it across climbing out of their civillian barges getting shot at and bombed by the RAF, being torn apart by the RN and getting cut to shreads by barbed wire...............

Wow a lot of bottled up anger in there isn't!

 

[Udet]

Lancaster Kick Ass:

Sure you are entitled to your opinion, still it appears like you have an over-inflated view of the situation of England right after the fall of France.

For one moment it would seem you speak like if the losing side during 1940 was Germany and not England.

The Luftwaffe certainly never gained air superiority over England but the RAF was not in the best of the shapes either, they had sustained important losses as well.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

That is true that the Brits were not in that good of shape but I still dont think the Germans would have succeded in Seleowe, there were too many things standing against them.

 

[plan_D]

The RAF was battered, yes. However the RAF was producing planes without any trouble from Luftwaffe bombing, the RAF was bombing France and Germany. The RAF had gained complete air superiority over Britain, the Luftwaffe would not have been able to stop the RAF bombing the invasion fleet.

Do you think Normandy would have been it's amazing success if the Luftwaffe had complete air superiority over the Channel and Northern France. I can assure you, it would have not been. The LSTs would have been blown out the water before the troops even got ashore.

It may seem Lanc is getting over-excited but he's right. Britain was not going to lay down and die, Churchill had already prepared men for guerilla warfare when the Germans occupied their villages. There were like 5 men in each village trained for guerilla wafare, guns, explosives, knives, stealth they were all trained in.

 

[evangilder]

Yes, the Brits would have given the Germans a heck of a time. One proper motivation for an attack on German by partisans would go something like this:

Hey Trevor, see those Jerries over there?
Uh huh
They said <insert local favorite football club team> sucks
Those dirty bastards...

Then you'd see a field of dead Germans.

 

[Erich]

The GErman Army did not have enough landing craft acquisitioned so it would not of worked. Besides the UFO's were not ready to be launched as they had not gone through the proper flight trials for medium altitude......

 

[plan_D]

If you said that to them, evan. They'd go over to Germany and cause a riot.

 

[evangilder]

I didn't say how big that field was! hehe

 

[Lightning Guy]

THe RAF's numbers were less and less of a problem once the Luftwaffe started focusing on London. As I noted earlier, the RAF fields, factories, and command centers would have had to have been continually hit for the Luftwaffe to attain air superiority. Since this didn't happen, air superiority over England was fairly well assured by late '41 early '42. Yes the Luftwaffe killed alot of civilans, but they certainly were crippling the RAF which was flying more and more offensive sorties by this point in the war.

Plan_D's mention of Normandy brings up some interesting thoughts as well. The Allied forces enjoyed . . . strategic surprise over the Germans, complete air superiority over the beaches, major naval support, a properly equipped amphibious force and still received heavy casualties. How would the Germans have faired trying to invade England without any of these advantages?

 

[Anonymous]

THe RAF's numbers were less and less of a problem once the Luftwaffe started focusing on London. As I noted earlier, the RAF fields, factories, and command centers would have had to have been continually hit for the Luftwaffe to attain air superiority. Since this didn't happen, air superiority over England was fairly well assured by late '41 early '42. Yes the Luftwaffe killed alot of civilans, but they certainly were crippling the RAF which was flying more and more offensive sorties by this point in the war.

Plan_D's mention of Normandy brings up some interesting thoughts as well. The Allied forces enjoyed . . . strategic surprise over the Germans, complete air superiority over the beaches, major naval support, a properly equipped amphibious force and still received heavy casualties. How would the Germans have faired trying to invade England without any of these advantages?

If the Germans had continued to hit the tactical targets, the RAF would have retreated to lick their wounds so as not to get so weak they could not respond to an invasion. This was the RAF plan but it never had to be implimented.

The answer is - miserably! Again, I think had the German's attempted Seelowe, as planned, the odds are better than not that the first invasion flottila would have been swamped in the channel, they'd have suffered tremendous losses, and it would have been called off without the British having had to fire a single shot. The channel is known for unpredictability and high swells. The odds of getting two strait days of calm are practically nil.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The RAF was battered, yes. However the RAF was producing planes without any trouble from Luftwaffe bombing, the RAF was bombing France and Germany. The RAF had gained complete air superiority over Britain, the Luftwaffe would not have been able to stop the RAF bombing the invasion fleet.

Do you think Normandy would have been it's amazing success if the Luftwaffe had complete air superiority over the Channel and Northern France. I can assure you, it would have not been. The LSTs would have been blown out the water before the troops even got ashore.

It may seem Lanc is getting over-excited but he's right. Britain was not going to lay down and die, Churchill had already prepared men for guerilla warfare when the Germans occupied their villages. There were like 5 men in each village trained for guerilla wafare, guns, explosives, knives, stealth they were all trained in.

Dont take me wrong, I agree with you fully on all of this. I was just making a joke about Lancs overexitedness. Britain would never have laid down and died. They would have fought valiently and they would have won, I will not deny this and everyone else knows this too. Just as even posted you threaten a Brits football team and his favorite pub you are going to die.

 

[Nonskimmer]

Or his favorite beer. Even though I hate the stuff.

(private joke.)

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I love beer! I really enjoy the taste of a good Hefeweizen, Kristalweizen or Pils bier. I am sure that even RG_Lunatic can not argue that the Germans are masters of making beer. I would kill for one right now, just one! When I get home after I take a long bath and make (probably quick ) love to my wife I am going to pour myself a cold glass of German Bier and drink it as slow as possible to savour it.

 

[Nonskimmer]

Oh, I love beer too! Just not the same beer plan_D does.
Sorry about that, it was one of those "you had to be there" kind of things.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Oh my bad. I love beer from all over the world but not too much the US beers even though I have found a few that I do like. (No RG_Lunatic this is not because they are brewed in the US but because they use too many preservatives in them). But I love a good German Bier, or a Guiness or Kilkenny and even a Czech Budweiser.

 

[plan_D]

Well, it was one of those things that he had to be there for but not you NS, 'cos I'm going to KILL YOU!

I'm a fan of German beer more than any other country, but all of Europe has good beer. American beer is shite, everyone knows that.