GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Khrushchev also made a few positive remarks about LL (which, like Stalin, was rare)
Groundhog Thread v. 2.0 - The most important battle of WW2
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Shortround6
Major General
last first.
Yep, The summer of 1942 German offensive is a western fiction invented to justify the legend that LL save Russia.
Pistols are one of the least effective weapons of war. In some western armies more troops were shot in accidents than enemy troops shot in combat. They were used as badges of office, for battlefield discipline and sometimes by troops whose primary weapon was something that needed horses or a truck to move.
6000 LL tanks : in June 1941 the Soviets had 22000 tanks and they produced another 60000 during the war.
This is a real case of looking at the forest and missing the trees. In June of 1940 the Soviets had 22-24,000 tanks, sources differ, in part because the Russians never threw anything away (scrapped). Again sources differ but some say that only about 1/2 of those tanks were "runners", that is able to move under their own power. Some may have been waiting for parts, others were being used as source of parts and would never run again.
From Wiki "On 1 June 1941, the Red Army had 10,268 T-26 light tanks of all models on their inventories, including armoured combat vehicles based on the T-26 chassis." How many of twin turret early T-26s were left at this point I don't know. There were also several thousand T-37.T-38 and T-40 light tanks armed with a single machine gun each.
Many of the tanks the Russians "lost" were sitting in depots when the Germans over ran the areas.
Russian tank production in 1941 was 6,274 of which 1907 were light tanks, all but 50 of which were significantly inferior to the German MK II.
In 1942 Russian tank production was 24,690 of which 9,553 were light tanks, almost 4900 of them were armed with the 45mm gun but and one man turrets and very few had radios.
In 1941 the western Allies shipped 487 Matildas, Valentines and Tetrachs from Britian and 182 M3A1 Stuarts and M3 mediums. By the end of 1942 Britain had shipped a "total" of 2487 tanks and the US had shipped 3023. The 6000 tank number underplays the Western contribution as almost 21,000 armored vehicles reached Russia almost 2,000 more were lost enroute.
Broken down the western allies contributed about 16% of Russian tank production, 12% of the SP gun production and 100% of the APC production (half tracks) which were extensively used as gun tractors. In the critical year of 1942 the Western allies supplied close to 20% of the production of Soviet tanks.
What was being supplied shifted with time. Fewer actual tanks and more steel to build them, more fuel, and more components/raw materials for ammunition. Also more electrical components for radios.
Doesn't matter how many T-34s the Russians had if they didn't have enough ammo.
One source claims "The Allies supplied 317,000 tons of explosive materials including 22 million shells that was equal to just over half of the total Soviet production of approximately 600,000 tons. Additionally the Allies supplied 103,000 tons of toluene, the primary ingredient of TNT. In addition to explosives and ammunition, 991 million miscellaneous shell cartridges were also provided to speed up the manufacturing of ammunition. "
Other materials included nitrocellulose propellent (smokeless powder).
The Soviet Union produced roughly 2/3rds the amount of steel in 1941 that Germany did. In 1942 and 43 they produced less than 1/3 the amount of steel. things got a bit better in 1944 and 1945. Without LL the Soviets had little hope of out producing the Germans.
The crucial years were 1941 and 1942 and 1943.
A map of Blau does not indicate that the Germans had still any chance to defeat the Soviets in the Summer of 1941 .It is the opposite : it not only indicates, but proves that Barbarossa,which was planned as a short and fast campaign to be successful before the Autumn of 1941, had definitely and irrevocably failed .
And, even if Blau was successful, the result would still be the Soviets in Berlin,because they were not depending on the oil of the Caucasus .The Soviets arrived in Berlin with an oil production that was lower than the pre war production .During the planning of Blau,the German oil experts warned that there was no indication at all that the loss of the Caucasus oil would force the Soviets to give up .
And about steel : WHY would it be needed for the Soviets to outproduce the Germans ? How much of the German steel was used for the war in the East ?How much steel was needed for the war in the East ?
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Just curious, but how could Soviet oil production be lower during the war than pre-war?
The demand of tens of thousands tanks, tens of thousands of aircraft, thousands of trucks as well as warships engaging in combat requires fuel.
How is it that the Soviet Union was able to sustain a total war with diminished oil production?
The answer to this just may help our current energy demands, by the way.
The demand of tens of thousands tanks, tens of thousands of aircraft, thousands of trucks as well as warships engaging in combat requires fuel.
How is it that the Soviet Union was able to sustain a total war with diminished oil production?
The answer to this just may help our current energy demands, by the way.
Shortround6
Major General
You are, of course, joking.
Many people focus on the visible weapons of war. Total number of tanks or aircraft and miss the when. 5000 LL tanks in 1942 is much more important than 5000 LL tanks in 1944/45 for example.
Many people don't get to the 2nd area of weapons/supplies.
The Western allies supplied about 1/3 of all the explosives used by the Soviet Union.
The Western allies supplied about 55% of all the Aluminum used by the Soviet Union.
The Western allies supplied about 80% of all the copper used by the Soviet Union.
The Western allies supplied about 1/3 of all the aviation gasoline used by the Soviet Union.
even fewer get to the 3rd area.
How many lathes, milling machine, drills, drill bits and other machinery to equip Russian factories so they could achieve the production totals they did. The Russians could have made their own but machine tools that are being used to build new machine tools are not making product, like tanks, trucks, aircraft engines or even rifles.
Food is another area. A number like 10% (illustration sake) may seem insignificant but when it is compared to Russian actual food consumption, Many factory workers and families were on near starvation diets, 10% more calories can be the difference between life and death.
The facts remain the facts .
The Soviet oil production was 30 million ton in 1940 and 20 million in 1945 .
Consumption ?
Before WWII less than production, the surplus was used as reserve or sold .
During WWII ,the consumption remained inferior to the production (Source : Germany and WW 2) and, only a part of the consumption was by the military .
Tanks and trucks do consume oil only when they are used, and they do not last very long :tanks a few months .If every day 5000 tanks were driving 100 km ( which is very optimistic ) and consumed 500000 liters, that is a daily consumption of 500 ton ,which is yearly 180000 ton,which is less than 1 % of the production .
Warships moved only exceptionally .
Aircraft : everyday a few hundred.
Before the war most oil was used by the industry,only a small part by the military . During the war it was the opposite ,with the difference that the military used less oil during the war than the civilians before the war .
I will search for the exact production figures from 1940 to 1945
It is the same for the aluminium,copper and avgas.
About the food : the real Soviet food consumption was much higher than what the official stats indicated, it was the same for the Germans, French, British ,etc .Not only during the war ,but also before and after the war . Even today .
At the beginning of the war, the Soviet authorities declared that they could not feed the population and that people had to feed themselves .And people did it . They did feed themselves ( most of the Soviet population in 1941 lived in the country or had ties with the country ),what they received from the state and from LL was nothing more than a supplement .
The Soviet agriculture was never totally nationalized: a big part remained privatized , til the end .
In 1966 the private sector of the Soviet agriculture produced 64 % of the potatoes, 40 % of the meat,43 % of the vegetables .
Source : John W.de Pauw :the Private Sector in Soviet Agriculture .
During the war, every one in Belgium was peasant, every one in the UK, in Germany, in the USSR, in......
The Soviet oil production was 30 million ton in 1940 and 20 million in 1945 .
Consumption ?
Before WWII less than production, the surplus was used as reserve or sold .
During WWII ,the consumption remained inferior to the production (Source : Germany and WW 2) and, only a part of the consumption was by the military .
Tanks and trucks do consume oil only when they are used, and they do not last very long :tanks a few months .If every day 5000 tanks were driving 100 km ( which is very optimistic ) and consumed 500000 liters, that is a daily consumption of 500 ton ,which is yearly 180000 ton,which is less than 1 % of the production .
Warships moved only exceptionally .
Aircraft : everyday a few hundred.
Before the war most oil was used by the industry,only a small part by the military . During the war it was the opposite ,with the difference that the military used less oil during the war than the civilians before the war .
I will search for the exact production figures from 1940 to 1945
That the Western allies supplied 1/3 of the explosives used by the Soviets,does not mean that without these explosives,the Soviets would have used 1/3 less explosives .
It is the same for the aluminium,copper and avgas.
About the food : the real Soviet food consumption was much higher than what the official stats indicated, it was the same for the Germans, French, British ,etc .Not only during the war ,but also before and after the war . Even today .
At the beginning of the war, the Soviet authorities declared that they could not feed the population and that people had to feed themselves .And people did it . They did feed themselves ( most of the Soviet population in 1941 lived in the country or had ties with the country ),what they received from the state and from LL was nothing more than a supplement .
The Soviet agriculture was never totally nationalized: a big part remained privatized , til the end .
In 1966 the private sector of the Soviet agriculture produced 64 % of the potatoes, 40 % of the meat,43 % of the vegetables .
Source : John W.de Pauw :the Private Sector in Soviet Agriculture .
During the war, every one in Belgium was peasant, every one in the UK, in Germany, in the USSR, in......
Glider
Captain
I have to say that you are very good at ignoring questions that are difficult or impossible to answer, using the age old tactic of just asking more questions.
I am waiting for a response to the question.
You may want to think about how many tanks Russia could have produced with less than 50% of the available armour plate, a similar loss of aluminium for aircraft and engines for the tanks and a massive reduction in the rail network to move the material across the vastness of Russia.
Do you believe that this would have hindered in any way the ability of Russia to defend itself?
I am waiting for a response to the question.
You may want to think about how many tanks Russia could have produced with less than 50% of the available armour plate, a similar loss of aluminium for aircraft and engines for the tanks and a massive reduction in the rail network to move the material across the vastness of Russia.
Do you believe that this would have hindered in any way the ability of Russia to defend itself?
buffnut453
Captain
This is a genuine question...so please be patient with me.
I understand the UK got about 25% of its wartime material via Lend Lease. I also know that Churchill and others were extremely worried about the trans-Atlantic supply route. However, how much did the UK really NEED supplies from the US? Bearing in mind the UK provided a fair amount of Lend Lease materiel to the USSR, it strikes me that, had the UK focused on its own needs, interruption of supplies from the States probably wouldn't have brought the country to its knees.
What am I missing?
I understand the UK got about 25% of its wartime material via Lend Lease. I also know that Churchill and others were extremely worried about the trans-Atlantic supply route. However, how much did the UK really NEED supplies from the US? Bearing in mind the UK provided a fair amount of Lend Lease materiel to the USSR, it strikes me that, had the UK focused on its own needs, interruption of supplies from the States probably wouldn't have brought the country to its knees.
What am I missing?
Glider
Captain
Personally I think there were two things that stand out. Food and Fuel. Fuel we didn't need the USA for as we were pretty well covered from other sources but if control of the sea had been lost then we would have been like Japan.
Food was the big problem. Again to a large degree there were other sources but the USA were a major source and again losing control of the sea would have stopped supplies
Food was the big problem. Again to a large degree there were other sources but the USA were a major source and again losing control of the sea would have stopped supplies
buffnut453
Captain
Yes, but sea power is rather like air power....it's somewhat transitory. It was highly unlikely that the UK would lose sea power completely. Temporarily at a given location? Yes. Permanently across the entire Atlantic? Highly doubtful. The Kreigsmarine simply didn't have the vessels to do that.
I just haven't found any reliable data on the quantity of goods carried that weren't strictly war materiel (nor, for that matter, raw materials like steel or copper) coming to the UK from the US. I'm just not convinced that "losing" the Battle of the Atlantic was ever really on the cards (no matter what the concerns in Whitehall)...and even if there had been disruption, I'm not sure it would have kicked the UK out of the War completely.
I just haven't found any reliable data on the quantity of goods carried that weren't strictly war materiel (nor, for that matter, raw materials like steel or copper) coming to the UK from the US. I'm just not convinced that "losing" the Battle of the Atlantic was ever really on the cards (no matter what the concerns in Whitehall)...and even if there had been disruption, I'm not sure it would have kicked the UK out of the War completely.
The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
Battle for Berlin and the dropping of the atomic bombs.
Soviet invasion of Manchuria.
Soviet invasion of Manchuria.
The UK could have survived but very difficult to see how it could have taken the war to Germany.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
I imagine that the primary need would have been food. Rationing in the UK was tight, even after the war ended. It would've taken a lot of food to supply the English Army. The war was one of attrition. England, still in debt from the Great War, could use all the help it could get. It had to have been a big help.
They may have been old but I'm sure those 50 destroyers helped too. Might not be part of lend lease but I just like those old "flush deck" destroyers.
They may have been old but I'm sure those 50 destroyers helped too. Might not be part of lend lease but I just like those old "flush deck" destroyers.
Rationing was tight but for a substantial part of the population the diet improved. My grandmother lived in the countryside in Yorkshire in a small holding (couple of pigs and chickens and a plot of land), she got two evacuees from Londons east end. They had never eaten so well in their lives. They remained pen pals with my mother until they died, both said it was a life changing experience for the better.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Seeing as how that happened on a farm with pigs, you got a bacon.
Not exactly a farm, it was a big ramshackle house in a beautiful village. She lived there till I was 5 and I just remember it, she had got rid of the pigs by then but still had the chickens. Although they ate better than most because she had pigs and chickens and grew some veg. For the same boys if they were just on the minimum rations that would be better than what they had pre war, the situation of the poor in the east end of London was desperate, both boys were flea ridden and emaciated when they arrived, they were soon cleaned up and fattened up in typical Yorkshire fashion.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Nice to hear about something good that happened to those kids.
Sticking with aircraft only:
British industry may somehow have covered the needs of the RAF during the war, especially if several thousand Hurricanes and Spitfires hadn't been sent to the Soviet Union - but that would not have been true for the RN FAA - just as many Martlets, Hellcats and F4U Corsairs were supplied to the RN as were Sea Hurricanes and Seafires, not to mention all those "Tarpons". The RAF might have been able to be equipped with British industry sourced aircraft - but what about the Commonwealth partners, Australia, NZ and South Africa?
Could someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if I recall the US supplied the UK and Commonwealth with around 42,000 aircraft - or what was the figure?
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There were lots of stories like that, one I saw recently:- the laws applied to everyone even to China town in London, a big group of British Chinese were evacuated to one village, its the stuff movies are made of, as with my mother, they remained friends for life, a few got married etc.
0311isawesome
Recruit
- 1
- May 10, 2021
No midway :/
