Today's greatest Ace?

Discussion in 'Post-War' started by FLYBOYJ, Aug 5, 2005.

  1. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2005
    Messages:
    23,197
    Likes Received:
    779
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Aircraft Maintenance Manager/ Flight Instructor
    Location:
    Colorado, USA
    "Giora Even is Israel’s leading ace with 17 victories! Born in 1938 as Giora Epstein, he grew up in the traditional frontier-farmer lifestyle of his home, Kibbutz Negba. An avid aviation enthusiast as a young boy, he poured over flying books and studied the biographies of Britain’s wartime aces. After the 1956 Suez War, the 18 year old joined the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) and applied for flight training but was rejected for medical reasons. Enraged, he went to his commander and told him that if he could not be a pilot, he wanted to be a paratrooper. He eventually made over 700 jumps and was a member of the IDF’s parachute demonstration team. After seven years and countless obstacles, he was finally on his way to becoming a fighter pilot! Beginning in 1963 Even flew frontline fighters: Dassault Ouragons, Super Mysteres, and Mirage IIIs; Israeli Aircraft Industries Neshers and Kfirs; and General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcons. He accumulated over 5,000 hours of fighter time and scored 17 victories. During the 1973 Yom Kippur War, Even shot down 12 Egyptian aircraft, eight of them in 26 hours! After the war, he was awarded the Medal of Ideal, one of Israel’s highest military honors."
     
  2. Glider

    Glider Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2005
    Messages:
    6,160
    Likes Received:
    128
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Consellor
    Location:
    Lincolnshire
    Someone you want on your side when the chips are down.
     
  3. evangilder

    evangilder "Shooter"
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2004
    Messages:
    19,419
    Likes Received:
    137
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Occupation:
    Network Engineer/Photographer
    Location:
    Moorpark, CA
    Home Page:
    Yep, or in a bar fight! IDF guys are pretty bad-ass.
     
  4. Nonskimmer

    Nonskimmer Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2004
    Messages:
    8,848
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    Naval Electronics Technician
    Location:
    Halifax, Nova Scotia
    Quite a pilot.
     
  5. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2005
    Messages:
    23,197
    Likes Received:
    779
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Aircraft Maintenance Manager/ Flight Instructor
    Location:
    Colorado, USA
    I wsas told there was supposed to be a guy with 18 kills - I'll try to look him up!
     
  6. lesofprimus

    lesofprimus Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    19,162
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Communications
    Location:
    Long Island Native in Mississippi
    Home Page:
    OK.... As near as I can get em, after a couple hours of research, here is a listing of all Aces AFTER Korea....

    EDIT: Added Nahumi at the bottom of the list....

    Shalmon, Abraham (Israeli) 18 [17+1]
    Marom, Oded (Israeli) 18 [17+1]

    Aven, Giora (Epstein) (Israeli) 17

    Spector, Yiftah (Israeli) 15 [14+1]
    Snir, Asher (Israeli) 15 [14+1]

    Nahumi, Amir (Israeli) 13
    Harish, Dror (Israeli) 13

    Richter, Ya'akov (Israeli) 12 [11+1]
    Koren, Yehuda (Israeli) 12 [11+1]
    Baharav, Israel (Israeli) 12

    Melnik, Moshe (Israeli) 11 [10+1]

    Levi, Shlomo (Israeli) 10

    Zandi, Jalal (Iranian) 9
    Nguyen Van Coc (Vietnam) 9
    Sharon, Menachem (Israeli) 9
    Ronen (Pecker), Ran (Israeli) 9
    Carmi, Eitan (Israeli) 9

    Hertz, Moshe (Israeli) 8 [7+1]
    Gonen, Ilan (Israeli) 8
    Even-Nir, Uri (Israeli) 8
    Enian, Menachem (Israeli) 8
    Egozy, Shlomo (Israeli) 8
    Amir, Amos (Israeli) 8
    Pham Thanh Ngan (Vietnam) 8
    Nguyen Hong Nhi (Vietnam) 8
    Mai Van Cuong (Vietnam) 8

    Tzuk, Michael (Israeli) 7
    Shmul, Menachem (Israeli) 7
    Peer, Ytzhak (Israeli) 7
    Nave (Michael), Avner (Israeli) 7 [6+1]
    Keidar, Yirmiyahu (Israeli) 7
    Cohen, Ariel (Israeli) 7 [6+1]
    Bar, Amos (Israeli) 7
    Nguyen Van Bay (Vietnam) 7
    Dang Ngoc Ngu (Vietnam) 7

    Hoda, A. (Iranian) 6
    Rayyan, M. (Iraqi) 6
    Ščabakov, Vadim Petrovič (Soviet) 6
    el-Gar, Adeeb (Syrian) 6
    Halabi, Majad (Syrian) 6
    Zugbi, Majid (Syrian) 6
    Simon, Sha'ul (Israeli) 6 [4+2]
    Peri, Ben-Ami (Israeli) 6
    Peled, Eitan (Israeli) 6
    Livni, Gideon (Israeli) 6 [5+1]
    Lanir, Avi (Israeli) 6
    Hankin, Ehud (Israeli) 6 [5+1]
    Gil, Uri (Israeli) 6 [5+1]
    Geva, Yoram (Israeli) 6
    Eliyahu, Menachem (Israeli) 6
    Ben-Nun, Asef (Israeli) 6
    Agmon, Yoram (Israeli) 6
    Afek (Hofman), Omri (Israeli) 6
    Vu Ngoc Dinh (Vietnam) 6
    Nguyen Tiem Sam (Vietnam) 6
    Nguyen Nhat Chieu (Vietnam) 6
    Nguyen Ngoc Do (Vietnam) 6
    Nguyen Doc Soat (Vietnam) 6
    Nguyen Dang Kinh (Vietnam) 6
    Nguyen Ba Dich (Vietnam) 6
    Luu Huy Chao (Vietnam) 6
    Le Thanh Dao (Vietnam) 6
    Le Hai (Vietnam) 6

    Cunningham, Randolph H. (USA) 5
    Ritchie, Richard S. (USA) 5
    Weintraub (Navot), Shlomo (Israeli) 5
    Adib, Djur Adib (Syrian) 5
    Shafir, Israel (Relik) (Israeli) 5
    S, Eytan (Israeli) 5
    Rozen, Reuven (Israeli) 5
    Rom, Giora (Israeli) 5
    Rockach, Ami (Israeli) 5
    Peled, Yoram (Israeli) 5
    Noiner, Itamar (Israeli) 5
    Dror, Gideon (Israeli) 5
    Dotan, Ezra "Babban" (Israeli) 5
    Bodinger, Herzl (Israeli) 5
    Ben-Nun, Avihu (Israeli) 5
    Arad, Amnon (Israeli) 5 [4+1]
    Nahumi, Amir (Israeli) 5
     
  7. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2005
    Messages:
    23,197
    Likes Received:
    779
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Aircraft Maintenance Manager/ Flight Instructor
    Location:
    Colorado, USA
    Great stuff Les - Look at all the Israelis!
     
  8. lesofprimus

    lesofprimus Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    19,162
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Communications
    Location:
    Long Island Native in Mississippi
    Home Page:
    Yea the Israelis and the North Vietnamese....

    **Edit**
    And BTW, save this list, cause its the only one on the internet... Ateast I couldnt find a solid list like this anywhere.... I looked and looked... Its all piecemeal, here and there... I just combined it all and edited and copy and pasted my ass off lol...
     
  9. cheddar cheese

    cheddar cheese Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    20,349
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    WSM, England
    Nice list! Good job les.
     
  10. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2005
    Messages:
    23,197
    Likes Received:
    779
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Aircraft Maintenance Manager/ Flight Instructor
    Location:
    Colorado, USA
    I found a couple of those lists - it seems that the Guy Randy Cunningham smoked (Toon or Tomb, depending whose book you're reading) is always omitted....... :-k
     
  11. lesofprimus

    lesofprimus Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    19,162
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Communications
    Location:
    Long Island Native in Mississippi
    Home Page:
    From: “Lee Brimmicombe-Wood”
    Subject: Colonel Tomb
    Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 17:30:15 -0000
    Interesting page on Duke Cunningham. Even more interesting is the myth about his fight against Colonel “Tomb” (or “Toon”, depending on your source) on 10th May 1972 over North Vietnam. America’s first Navy ace in the South East Asian conflict faces off against a fourteen kill hero with a name like “Tomb”. Sounds like something out of Hollywood, doesn’t it?

    It is.

    Two scholars, Dr. Istvan Toperczer and Marshall L. Michel III (the latter the author of the definitive book on the air war in Vietnam, Clashes) have visited Hanoi separately performing original research on the air campaigns. Michel is a former USAF Phantom pilot with a number of missions over Vietnam to his name, has flown practice combat against Cunningham, and can hardly be called a ‘Commie Lover’. Both Toperczer and Michel asked the Vietnamese People’s Air Force (VPAF) about “Tomb/Toon” and got a blank response.

    In short, the man didn’t exist. As Marshall Michel put it to me, the VPAF aren’t slow to honour their finest. And dead martyrs are as good as live ones. They had no Earthly reason to cover up the death of a top pilot. The only reason they didn’t comment on the loss of a hero is that he didn’t exist.

    So where did the Tomb myth come from? No one knows. I have personally heard all sorts of theories. Tomb is an amalgam of several officers. He really did exist but the details are still secret and are being held by the NSA. He was a Russian adviser. All sorts of conspiracies abound.

    The story is muddied by Cunningham, who was one of the earliest Top Guns; a real ‘gung ho’ flyer who believed he couldn’t be beat in anything with wings. Cunningham states his opponent was really good. But Cunningham wasn’t flying too well that day. His RIO, Willie Driscoll, gives a more level-headed account of the flight and states that on several occasions he recognized that he and Duke were in a less-than-good situation and asked Cunningham to extend and get out. Duke refused, telling Driscoll that he was on top of things.

    Expert opinion is divided. There’s a big strand of thought amongst the flying community that anyone who gets a kill must have done well to get it. But there’s another which says that Cunningham took enormous risks to get this kill and it could so easily have gone wrong. I incline to the idea that this was not the best of fights, Cunningham was not thinking straight, and that there were far more sensible things he should have done that day.

    Not that Duke would accept this view...

    There is a final note on the legendary VPAF fighter pilot Colonel Tomb mentioned in many Western publications. During my visit to Vietnam I tried to find out about him, but it seems that he is, and was, only an imaginary figure. There are several reasons for this:

    There were very few pilots in the VPAF and they knew each other very well either from their training courses abroad or from joint service in VPAF regiments. Both Nguyen Van Coc and Pham Tuan (decorated VPAF pilots) denied, in separate interviews, that they knew or had ever heard of “Colonel Tomb”.

    There is no official record of a Colonel Tomb in VPAF files, and, if he really had 13 victories, the VPAF propaganda machine would certainly have used him.
    In 1972 there were no active pilots with rank of Colonel in the VPAF.
    No North Vietnamese pilot had 13 aerial victories as reported by western experts.
    The name Tomb does not exist in the Vietnamese language, nor are there any similar sounding names.”
    According to Toperczer, the “top-scoring" would be Nguyen Van Coc, with nine claimed kills, followed by Nguyen Hong Nhi and Mai Van Cuong, with 8 each.



    Thanks,
    - Lee Brimmicombe-Wood
     
  12. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2005
    Messages:
    23,197
    Likes Received:
    779
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Aircraft Maintenance Manager/ Flight Instructor
    Location:
    Colorado, USA
    Great stuff Les!!!!
     
  13. evangilder

    evangilder "Shooter"
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2004
    Messages:
    19,419
    Likes Received:
    137
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Occupation:
    Network Engineer/Photographer
    Location:
    Moorpark, CA
    Home Page:
    For some reason I remember an interview I saw with Duke Cunningham and he mentioned a Colonel "Toon". I'll have to see if I can dig out that tape.

    Great list, Les. Good to see someone took the time to grab all that info.
     
  14. lesofprimus

    lesofprimus Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    19,162
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Communications
    Location:
    Long Island Native in Mississippi
    Home Page:
    Cunningham does mention it, and has mentioned it in several publications and interviews... I believe he was told about this "Tomb" character by some Intel meatball.....

    Thanks evan.....
     
  15. evangilder

    evangilder "Shooter"
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2004
    Messages:
    19,419
    Likes Received:
    137
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Occupation:
    Network Engineer/Photographer
    Location:
    Moorpark, CA
    Home Page:
    Could be, he did seem a bit of an arrogant guy. I never met him in person, but he had more that the usual fighter pilot "I'm hot shit" vibe going on.
     
  16. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2005
    Messages:
    23,197
    Likes Received:
    779
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Aircraft Maintenance Manager/ Flight Instructor
    Location:
    Colorado, USA
    :evil4: Yep - and I heard he likes his drink too! :drinking:
     
  17. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2005
    Messages:
    23,197
    Likes Received:
    779
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Aircraft Maintenance Manager/ Flight Instructor
    Location:
    Colorado, USA
    I found a site that has the top Isreali pilots stacked like this.....

    It shows Aven Goria (Epstien) with 18 kills

    06-Jun-67 Giora Aven (Epstein) Mirage IIICJ 56 Su-7 Egypt
    20-Jul-69 Giora Aven (Epstein) Mirage IIICJ 82 MiG-17 Egypt
    11-Sep-69 Giora Aven (Epstein) Mirage IIICJ 59 Su-7 Egypt
    25-Mar-70 Giora Aven (Epstein) Mirage IIICJ 77 MiG-21 Egypt
    25-Mar-70 Giora Aven (Epstein) Mirage IIICJ 77 MiG-21 Egypt
    18-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Mirage IIICJ 11 Mi-8 Egypt
    24-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Mirage IIIBJ 86 MiG-21 Egypt
    24-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Mirage IIIBJ 86 MiG-21 Egypt
    24-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Mirage IIIBJ 86 MiG-21 Egypt
    19-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Nesher 61 Su-7 Egypt
    19-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Nesher 61 Su-7 Egypt
    19-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Nesher Su-20 Egypt
    19-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Nesher Su-20 Egypt
    20-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Nesher 61 MiG-21 Egypt
    20-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Nesher 61 MiG-21 Egypt
    20-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Nesher 61 MiG-21 Egypt
    20-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Nesher 61 MiG-21 Egypt

    06-Jun-67 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ 15 MiG-19 Egypt
    08-Jun-67 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ MiG-19 Egypt
    15-Jul-67 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ MiG-17 Egypt
    15-Jul-67 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ MiG-17 Egypt
    10-Dec-68 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ 81 MiG-21 Egypt
    21-May-69 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ MiG-21 Egypt
    07-Jul-69 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ 59 MiG-17 Egypt
    26-Jun-69 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ MiG-21 Egypt
    06-Oct-69 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ 81 MiG-21 Egypt
    25-Mar-70 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ 15 MiG-21 Egypt
    27-Mar-70 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ MiG-21 Egypt
    04-Jan-70 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ 59 MiG-21 Egypt
    07-Oct-73 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ Su-7 Syria
    07-Oct-73 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ Hunter Iraq
    08-Oct-73 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ 58 MiG-17 Syria
    08-Oct-73 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ 85 Hunter Iraq
    10-Oct-73 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ 51 Su-7 Syria
    Shared Claim
    06-Oct-73 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ MiG-17 Syria

    08-Jun-67 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ 68 MiG-19 Egypt
    08-Jun-67 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ 68 MiG-19 Egypt
    24-Feb-69 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ MiG-17 Syria
    14-Jan-70 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ MiG-17 Syria
    26-Feb-70 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ 83 MiG-21 Egypt Sami Marei?
    08-Feb-70 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ 80 MiG-21 Egypt
    27-Mar-70 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ MiG-21 Egypt
    02-Apr-70 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ 68 MiG-21 Syria
    16-May-70 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ 68 MiG-21 Egypt
    30-Jul-70 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ 78 MiG-21 USSR
    30-Jul-70 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ 78 MiG-21 USSR Shared Claim
    3-Sep-73 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ 59 MiG-21 Syria
    08-Oct-73 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ 19? Hunter Iraq
    08-Oct-73 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ 19? Hunter Iraq
    24-Oct-73 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ 33 MiG-21 Egypt
    11-Oct-73 Abraham Shalmon Nesher 10 MiG-21 Egypt
    19-Apr-74 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ 58 MiG-21 Syria
    19-Apr-74 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ 58 MiG-21 Syria

    Here are 3 aces from the Becca Valley battles in 1982...

    09-Jun-82 Yoram Peled F-15A MiG-21 Syria
    09-Jun-82 Yoram Peled F-15A MiG-21 Syria Not confirmed
    10-Jun-82 Yoram Peled/Zvika F-15D MiG-21 Syria
    11-Jun-82 Yoram Peled F-15A MiG-23 Syria
    11-Jun-82 Yoram Peled F-15A MiG-23 Syria

    10-Jun-82 Amir Nahumi F-16 MiG-23 Syria
    10-Jun-82 Amir Nahumi F-16 MiG-23 Syria
    10-Jun-82 Amir Nahumi F-16 MiG-21 Syria
    11-Jun-82 Amir Nahumi F-16 MiG-21 Syria
    11-Jun-82 Amir Nahumi F-16 MiG-21 Syria

    11-Jun-82 Eytan S F-16A 107 MiG-23 Syria
    11-Jun-82 Eytan S F-16A 107 MiG-23 Syria
    11-Jun-82 Eytan S F-16A 107 Su-22 Syria
    11-Jun-82 Eytan S F-16A 107 SA.342L Syria
    09-Jun-82 Eytan S F-16 MiG-23 Syria
     
  18. lesofprimus

    lesofprimus Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    19,162
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Communications
    Location:
    Long Island Native in Mississippi
    Home Page:
    OK i added Nahumi to the list with 5 kills, the rest I had on there...

    Giora Aven had 17 kills, as I posted, AND as u posted FBJ... Count how many kills u posted... LOL....

    Look at the last 3 days of Avens combat history... Multiple kill days abound...
     
  19. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2005
    Messages:
    23,197
    Likes Received:
    779
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Aircraft Maintenance Manager/ Flight Instructor
    Location:
    Colorado, USA
    You're right! Up late, a few beers, well you know - :drinking: :oops:
     
  20. plan_D

    plan_D Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2004
    Messages:
    11,985
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Look at all the Israelis because they're fighting inferior Arabians all the time. :rolleyes:
     
Loading...

Share This Page