Top 11 Misconceptions of World War 2 #Eurocentric Edition

[wuzak]

They hit it in Big Week too...

Some 4 months later.

The knock out a facility like that needs more frequent raids.

 

[Schweik]

Have you served in the military or studied military operations? Those are tactical targets as well as tanks and artillery pieces.

I don't mean to seem glib on this, I believe there are two schools of thought, one which tends to refer to Strategic and Tactical, and another which refers to Operational between the S and the T. You can all it whatever you want, haft of the spear as distinct from the point of the spear, whatever - I am referring to rear area targets which aren't factories but also aren't weapons.

 

[Schweik]

Some 4 months later.

The knock out a facility like that needs more frequent raids.

Or target a more vulnerable industry...

 

[wuzak]

Or target a more vulnerable industry...

Like the oil industry? Which managed to repair facilities to partial or full output between raids for many months?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

They hit Schweinfurt several times

They did. like many other targets over Germany in WW2

 

[Schweik]

All depended how accurate (or thorough) the raids were. They repaired after a couple of sloppy raids, but eventually it was shut down.

 

[wuzak]

All depended how accurate (or thorough) the raids were. They repaired after a couple of sloppy raids, but eventually it was shut down.

After multiple bombing raids. And even then many weren't ever shot down completely - they just produced at a much lower rate.

But this is where the small vs big bombs argument comes in. Using large numbers of 100-500lb bombs (as the USAAF did) did not cause irreparable damage.

 

[wuzak]

I would also like to pint out that the attacks on transportation in the lead up to D-Day had the side effect of reducing oil production and availability for the Germans, since coal could not get to the synthetic oil plants, and oil from oil fields could not get to the refineries, or the refined products could not get to where it was needed.

 

[Schweik]

Fighter bombers and fast-bombers are very good at attacking transportation. That's what I was referring to upthread.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Fighter bombers and fast-bombers are very good at attacking transportation. That's what I was referring to upthread.

And again you're correct providing there is little or no Luftwaffe

 

[Schweik]

After multiple bombing raids. And even then many weren't ever shot down completely - they just produced at a much lower rate.

But this is where the small vs big bombs argument comes in. Using large numbers of 100-500lb bombs (as the USAAF did) did not cause irreparable damage.

One 500 lb bomb that hits - or lets say, 100 of them that are targeted with relative precision, is a big difference from a bunch which are scattered all over. In the early Ploesti raids the missions were under such duress that even though they were bombing at low altitude accuracy wasn't ideal. Gigantic lumbering four engined bombers roaring through at relatively slow speed made very good targets.

Very fast planes like say, Mosquitoes or Mustangs however could go in there wreck stuff fairly accurately and get out with far lower attrition. Mustangs were able to make it to Ploesti from Naples or other bases in Southern Italy, I double checked.


I think the big vs. small bomb thing is a lot more relavent when the accuracy is low for whatever reason.

 

[Schweik]

And again you're correct providing there is little or no Luftwaffe

Part of the mission is to break down the Luftwaffe. So bring half of your fighters with bombs and the other half loaded for bear.

 

[wuzak]

One 500 lb bomb that hits - or lets say, 100 of them that are targeted with relative precision, is a big difference from a bunch which are scattered all over.

What do you target "with precision"?

There is a lot of empty space in refineries, lots of pipes, buildings, and other equipment. What do you aim at?

Very fast planes like say, Mosquitoes or Mustangs however could go in there wreck stuff fairly accurately and get out with far lower attrition.

You want to do it earlier than historically. But you want to use aircraft that don't arrive in numbers until 1943 or 1944.

Mustangs were able to make it to Ploesti from Naples or other bases in Southern Italy, I double checked.

With bombs?

Again, those bases weren't available until sometime in 1944?

I think the big vs. small bomb thing is a lot more relavent when the accuracy is low for whatever reason.

Right, you use a lot of small bombs if your accuracy is low. In the chance that you will hit something. That's why the USAAF tended to smaller bombs as the Oil Campaign dragged on.

The bigger bombs required more accuracy, because you had less of them. But they could cause damage without a direct hit.

And smaller bombs would often not do sufficient damage to equipment to make it irreparable, even with a direct hit.

 

[Schweik]

What do you target "with precision"?

There is a lot of empty space in refineries, lots of pipes, buildings, and other equipment. What do you aim at?

The cat-cracker and the big distillation towers to cause long term (hard to repair) harm, the oil tanks to reduce stocks and make a lot of big fires... I'd also hit any rail terminals they had there.

You want to do it earlier than historically. But you want to use aircraft that don't arrive in numbers until 1943 or 1944.

There are various scenarios, depending on how much historical revision you want to do, but if you cut back drastically on the four engined heavies, possibly you can get aircarft like the Mustang into action a little quicker. But I don't even think that would have been necessary. They did already have Mustang bombers ready to go in 42. Make a few more of those, or just gather everything you have that is fast and has long range, and send it in. You don't need to push back any timelines.

With bombs?

Again, those bases weren't available until sometime in 1944?

They can use what they have. Send in Mossies with P-38s for high cover.

Right, you use a lot of small bombs if your accuracy is low. In the chance that you will hit something. That's why the USAAF tended to smaller bombs as the Oil Campaign dragged on.

The bigger bombs required more accuracy, because you had less of them. But they could cause damage without a direct hit.

Here, we part ways. I don't think daylight bombing was generally less accurate than night bombing. But regardless, 4 engine heavy bombers were not typically accurate. Especially if they were bombing from 20,000 ft or higher, let alone at night. And especially against targets like Ploesti where they could hear the droning, painfully slow approach of the heavies and start a lot of decoy fires and obscure the target with smoke before they even arrived.

Even really REALLY big bombs don't do a damn thing to a target if they hit half a mile away from it. Your CEP for a Mosquito or a fighter bomber is going to be a lot smaller, I direct your attention back to the 160 tons vs. 40 tons, as well as the 5% attrition vs. 0.5%.

We perhaps sometimes tend to dismiss the effects of a 500 lb bomb but it's a big, BIG BOOM, let alone a 2,000 lb. So long as you hit somewhere in the vicinity of what you are aiming at. That is why dive bombers were so devastating in the early war. I know the Brits loved those Cookies and Blockbusters etc., but they were not necessarily the be all end all. Note the post-war trend was for precision, usually (MOAB notwithstanding).

 

[Schweik]

I remember reading about a small raid by some Pe-2s that caused a lot of damage at Ploesti... they definitely weren't carrying Blockbusters

 

[pbehn]

When discussing the success of the oil plan, people often overlook the actions of the Soviet Union. For example Ploesti was captured by the Soviets army in August 1944, repairs to refineries there stopped before that.

 

[Graeme]

And the striking power of the Mosquito was best from 1944, when it could carry the 4,000lb bombs (HC or MC) as an alternative (the Mosquito raids against oil used either 6 x 500lb each - which could have been done prior to 1944, or a single 4,000lb bomb, or a mixture of both).

Hi Wuzak - How far could a Mossie travel with a 4,000 load?

Looking at this data box (early post-war figures) and the range map, it seems Berlin (indicated) was only just achievable - but with a minimum bomb load? According to Wiki - for long ranges it needed to cruise at 200mph.

 

[Graeme]

Ahhh...ignore the above mate - I was looking at kilometres on the map thinking they were miles.

 

[wuzak]

Hi Graeme, that chart appears to be for an FB.VI. To carry 2,000lb bombs they could not carry drop tanks.

A B.XVI could carry the 4,000lb bomb plus 2 50UKG drop tanks. At max weak mixture (ie pretty fast) the still air range was 1,165 miles.

With 5,000lb bombs the range at max weak was 850 miles.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Part of the mission is to break down the Luftwaffe. So bring half of your fighters with bombs and the other half loaded for bear.

That was done after the BoB, fighter sweeps over France and the RAF got their asses handed to them.