- Thread starter
-
- #41
i know, i was a bit rethoric, and the Lancaster was stripped of most guns and get lighter also in other equipment
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
i know, i was a bit rethoric, and the Lancaster was stripped of most guns and get lighter also in other equipmentIf I recall, not really: it was too big to fit entirely within the bomb bay.
It would appear that the spirit of the thread is aimed at averages, not exceptions.
not really: it was too big to fit entirely within the bomb bay.
Do we have any idea which ones the Germans/Japanese hated most?
IIRC Lancs (and Halifaxes) started to flew daylight raids (aside from special attacks such as Augsburg raid and Circus by small formations) just before D-Day and after in the soften up effort for the invasion when the jagdfliegers were almost absent from France and the ocuppied countries and then reverted to night bombing till 1945, when they restarted day bombing, even over Germany, and Luftwaffe fighters were almost extint, besides there were plenty of escort fighters aviable.I suppose you mean like the US 8th AF used the B-17s and B-24s? That'll be intriguing. The thing was, Lancasters flew lots of daylight raids, primarily raids against targets in France and occupied territories. Harris, that notorious bomber baron directed that ops over French territory should be during daylight and at low level to improve accuracy, primarily to avoid civilian casualties. The majority of these raids were considered a success. I remember reading somewhere (can't remember where exactly, dammit) that the percentage was something like nearly 30 percent of the Lancaster's operations were daylight raids.
Do we have any idea which ones the Germans/Japanese hated most?
besides "whichever one is overhead now"...
Do we have any idea which ones the Germans/Japanese hated most?
besides "whichever one is overhead now"...
Were discussion more general talking of the German for bomber stream at night and box formation by day. I remember a German pilot explaining a "shrage musik" attack, he didn't mention which type, just a four engine bomber, Halifax and Lancaster are probably almost identical from underneath at night.Difficult to quantify, but I can state with authority that the Mosquito was the most profusely mentioned allied bomber in the German Air Ministry
stenographic record. However thats difficult to parse, because of its multi-role status, and further complicated by the fact that without it
many RAF missions by other bombers would have failed (i.e pathfinder role).
I note that the Mosquito isnt in the shortlist, so admit a degree of cheek in mentioning it, but - mosquito-hating is pretty much what the
German records are full of.
Personally whilst I think the Lancaster was a great aircraft, I dont think it was the best heavy bomber purely due to very poor crew survivability due to
pretty pathetic armament.
I have done a keyword search of my RLM (Reichsluftfahrtministerium= German Air Ministry) stenographic records with Milch and Göring etc, and can report:
Mosquito = 113 mentions in twenty two 35mm microfilm reels ("Mosquito" ,"Moskito")
B-17 = 107 mentions in twenty 35mm microfilm reels ("B17", "B-17", "Fortress")
B-24 = 45mentions in sixteen 35mm microfilm reels " etc
Lancaster = 24 mentions in ten 35mm microfilm reels
Wellington = 6 mentions in six 35mm microfilm reels
Halifax = 5 mentions in eighteen 35mm microfilm reels
These are not definitive as the text recondition does not work equally well on every page, but given that there are about 50,000 pages,
one can assume these errors will average out. However this TENDS to pick out more keywords the shorter they are, as obviously
with OCR it gets less likeley to pick out sucessively longer lists of characters properly with an avg. OCR error every 10 characters or so. So probably any aircraft with a long name
is actually mentioned a bit more than one with a short numeric designation. But I cant tell you how much by.
These also do not tell you what was said (I can check but thats too time-consuming) however
generally a mention means they are concerned. They dont tend to spend hours talking about obsolete planes, so broadly, mentions
means the plane is considered to be troublesome for Germany in some form.
Examples:
View attachment 598148
View attachment 598159
And shortened name to illustrate keyword length sensitivity:
View attachment 598160
Were discussion more general talking of the German for bomber stream at night and box formation by day. I remember a German pilot explaining a "shrage musik" attack, he didn't mention which type, just a four engine bomber, Halifax and Lancaster are probably almost identical from underneath at night.
Were discussion more general talking of the German for bomber stream at night and box formation by day.
It was on TV. Additionally, some of the reported archeological digs of allied aircraft were falsely claimed as Halifax or Lancaster. To illustrate what he was saying he used an Me110. The main thing was that his preference was to approach from below and to the side and aim up into the tanks between the engines. But if you concentrate on the engines they don't identify the aircraft, both Lancaster and Halifax flew with radials and Merlins.Was he flying a Ju88? I'd be interested in that article.
Thanks!
The "bomber stream" changed over time, sometimes there were two groups with a time interval for all sorts of reasons (most of them statistical calculations I believe) but part of it was to make thing more difficult for fire fighting.The short duration of most USAAF raids enabled German defense personnel to leave shelter in time to deal with incendiaries and incipient fires before conflagrations were started. Because of the longer duration and lack of uniformity of RAF raids -- each bombardier sighted his bombs independently, whereas the customary practice in the Eighth Air Force was for pilots to release their bombs on a signal from the lead plane -- RAF attacks were, by almost unanimous agreement among the Germans interrogated, more terrifying and more damaging.
-- United States Strategic Bombing Survey: Oil Division
The "bomber stream" changed over time, sometimes there were two groups with a time interval for all sorts of reasons (most of them statistical calculations I believe) but part of it was to make thing more difficult for fire fighting.
I used to just imagine that the tiles were blown off and fell in the street until I went to Germany. A guest house I was in in Mulheim was owned by the same family as during the war. The owner was in it during a raid, the whole roof and all others were blown off and the streets filled with wood and slates and everything people have in lofts. A second wave allowed the pathfinders to expand and join established fires, its macabre stuff.Later on, things got very calculated, and if the target was a city it was found from early studies that some incendiaries were deflected off highly angled roofs and were thus rendered less effective. Therefore conventional bombs, often 4000lb "cookies" (often by Mosquitos) were dropped as the blast was found to very effectively remove slates. Then the 2nd wave would drop incendiaries, which - with the damaged tiles from wave #1, were found to be considerably more effective in incinerating the city.
Pretty awful stuff, but thats war I suppose.
I believe it was common for a Lancaster or Halifax to carry a 4,000lb cookie and a lot of incendiaries for the same purpose.Later on, things got very calculated, and if the target was a city it was found from early studies that some incendiaries were deflected off highly angled roofs and were thus rendered less effective. Therefore conventional bombs, often 4000lb "cookies" (often by Mosquitos) were dropped as the blast was found to very effectively remove slates. Then the 2nd wave would drop incendiaries, which - with the damaged tiles from wave #1, were found to be considerably more effective in incinerating the city.
Pretty awful stuff, but thats war I suppose.
They did, but its hard to believe they landed in the same place see pics in link, from the article the blast meant a 4,000 cookie had to be released above 6,000ft, when they find an unexploded bomb they clear an area of 0.9 mile radius. Blockbuster bomb - WikipediaI believe it was common for a Lancaster or Halifax to carry a 4,000lb cookie and a lot of incendiaries for the same purpose.
A fire tornado will appear only when the core temperature reaches a certain level and there's a steady supply of cool air at the base to promote convection.I've read that bomber streams tried to fly in a series of radiating linear patterns while dropping their incendiary bombs. To help create a vortex or fire tornado. At least, that's what I read about the Dresden bombings.