Jings! Must try that on the next roofing job... Wonder if those guys up in Auckland have finished their next Mossie yet...
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very effectively remove slates.
You'll be a hero to the local glaziers, too!Jings! Must try that on the next roofing job... Wonder if those guys up in Auckland have finished their next Mossie yet...
They certainly tried to start and expand the fires into a fire storm. Whether that was actually needed on Dresden is open to discussion. Dresden was special because it was one of the few old cities made largely of wooden structures. Most similar cities burned down themselves centuries before without any bombs or incendiaries being involved, like London and Cologne. Marking a target was a special skill, pathfinders had to repeatedly mark the aim point or move the aim point to spread the fire. That is in the best condition, in the worst condition they were simply marking an aim point on the cloud cover. One thing I remember they had to avoid was "creep back". The bomb aimers and crews wanted to get out of there as soon as possible so tended to drop on the nearest edge of the fire, which moved it further in that direction. It was very easy to end up making spectacular fires in the forests that surround many German cities.I've read that bomber streams tried to fly in a series of radiating linear patterns while dropping their incendiary bombs. To help create a vortex or fire tornado. At least, that's what I read about the Dresden bombings.
Later on, things got very calculated, and if the target was a city it was found from early studies that some incendiaries were deflected off highly angled roofs and were thus rendered less effective. Therefore conventional bombs, often 4000lb "cookies" (often by Mosquitos) were dropped as the blast was found to very effectively remove slates. Then the 2nd wave would drop incendiaries, which - with the damaged tiles from wave #1, were found to be considerably more effective in incinerating the city.
Pretty awful stuff, but thats war I suppose.
I disagree about "mistake" to any degree: we did less to them than they did to the Jews, the Poles, the Ukrainians...It's war, and an existential crisis for England especially. I don't mean to push a guilt trip, but I think we should recognize it was a ghastly mistake. We should back off from this mentality as much as possible.
With regard to the Original post about top ten allied bombers the raid on Dresden illustrates how much lady luck plays a part in results. The British bombed on a clear night, they found and marked the target accurately. Before the second wave arrived they marked different areas to be bombed. Less than 24 hours later the American first wave bombed visually, later aircraft found the target obscured with cloud and smoke while other planes from a different group didnt find Dresden at all and bombed 3 other cities/towns. In the article its clear why the Germans wanted to down the Mosquito, it completely changed the results of the raid. A clear night meant accurate navigation wasn't required for the bomber force, illuminating markers and later fires could be seen from hundreds of miles on a clear night. 3 aircraft lost by being hit by bombs is circa 0.5% of the force, a clever statistician could calculate what that means as regards how close all the stream were. Bombing of Dresden in World War II - WikipediaI've read that bomber streams tried to fly in a series of radiating linear patterns while dropping their incendiary bombs. To help create a vortex or fire tornado. At least, that's what I read about the Dresden bombings.
I disagree about "mistake" to any degree: we did less to them than they did to the Jews, the Poles, the Ukrainians...
The only thing worse than the Nazi regime was the Stalin regime ... or was it the other way around?
War: Their blood on the ground, their cities in ruins, or ours... I choose theirs.
The British position was made perfectly clear at the time, as far as I know it didn't change and remains valid today. America's National Churchill Museum | Winston Churchill's Do Your Worst; We'll Do Our Best SpeechNo one's hands are clean.
You are of course correct the aerodynamics are very different, In fact to claim the 4,000lb cookie had any aerodynamics is pushing it. With 7-800 bombers dropping their payloads in an area they don't need to land close to each other.They did, but its hard to believe they landed in the same place see pics in link, from the article the blast meant a 4,000 cookie had to be released above 6,000ft, when they find an unexploded bomb they clear an area of 0.9 mile radius. Blockbuster bomb - Wikipedia
It didn't have any aerodynamics but it was dense, I don't know if you've seen video of a cookie and incendiaries being dropped but the incendiaries shoot off the screen sideways similar to dropping leaflets or chaff.You are of course correct the aerodynamics are very different, In fact to claim the 4,000lb cookie had any aerodynamics is pushing it. With 7-800 bombers dropping their payloads in an area they don't need to land close to each other.
I have also been to Dresden, and worked in Mulheim Dusseldorf and many other places but the place I worked longest at was Knesebeck, not very far from Bergen Belsen, I passed through every time I went to Hamburg and passed the signs every time I went to Hanover airport. While the Dresden raid was taking place the Nazis were force marching anyone and everyone they had captive in the east to the west many went to Bergen Belsen, for no reason that can be explained other than doctrine. If the Dresden raid shortened the war by a day it was worthwhile.Victor Gregg, having been IN Dresden when it was wiped out probably had intense psychological damage from the things he saw, and so
his views probably represent those on one end of the spectrum. But as a veteran, and eye witness - its important to hear his testimony to
understand the worst aspects in retrospect of the campaign. Having lived in Germany myself for 3 years and having seen both the evidence of the
annihlated cities like Cologne where I lived, and also having been to Dachau (as a mere vistor thank god), I think I can agree with anyone who says war is
just total horror full-stop.
The bombing of my fathers fish and chip shop was militarily unnecessary and morally dubious too, as was the bombing of the watermill in Billingham that had been there since 1066.While Dresden may have been both militarily unnecessary and morally dubious, one should put the entire strategic bombing campaign into perspective: the total number of Axis civilian deaths, across all the Axis countries, was fewer than the civilian deaths in Poland.
The bombing of my fathers fish and chip shop was militarily unnecessary and morally dubious too
It wasn't only pre war, Harris had seen the blitz on London but still firmly believed more and better would achieve the predicted result. There are many examples from the history of siege warfare to prove both cases, some cities just wouldn't surrender and as a last resort killed each other. The problem with Harris was he thought he was fighting a similar enemy. Adolf didn't give a damn about what happened to Germany or Austria or what the effects were, you couldn't bomb him into submission because, as he proved, he would rather die, after everything was flattened of course.Nonsense, the Germans knew that deprived of fish and chips the British would have surrendered in a week
The whole pre-war school of thought that populations would riot in the streets and cause the fall of governments and the rapid suing for surrender after a few hundred bombers dropped bombs for a few days/nights was shown to be totally false in every nation that it was tried in.