Turretless Northrop P-61 Black Widows

[MrSmoothie]

I've collected a decent library of P-61 books and have been looking for some answered with respect to the top turret which gave Northrop a lot of trouble (buffeting), not to mention availability to the same turrets being prioritized for the B-29. One problem is that three of the books I have were written by the same author, and therefore, have what I believe to be the same incorrect or incomplete information.

In the Pacific theater, for example, it has become clear to me that most of the Widows that appear to have the top turret, do not (and I have the photos to prove it). In fact, what they do have is a four .50 cal MG installation which was fixed (did not rotate) with a streamlined cover distinctly different from the turret cover. These were apparently a field modification done in Hawaii. "Midnight Mickey" is an excellent example of a Widow so equipped.

However, in the ETO, the first P-61A's were delivered without turrets, nor have I identified any with the fixed .50 cal setup. In photos, these Black Widows are easy to spot, not just because they lack the turret, but because they were the only P-61's to receive invasion stripes.

With respect to the widows delivered without turrets, I've read some accounts that claim that they were, nonetheless, delivered with both of the elaborate remote gun sight units (gunner behind the pilot, as well as the for the radar operator in the back), as there was hope that the turrets would eventually be delivered and installed. Other accounts say they were removed for the considerable weight savings.

Further, I've read that the turretless P-61's eventually dispensed with the gunner position entirely, and moved the R.O. up to the front, leaving the rear seat empty. One pilot account (I'd have to find it) claimed that the overall weight reduction and shifting of the weight forward corrected what was, in his opinion, a too-aft CG which resulted in a slight nose-up flight angle, and that after the change, actually increased the top speed.

I'm including some pics of one of the better known turretless P-61's -- DOUBLE TROUBLE. OK experts, let me know your thoughts -- would this aircraft have had the gunsights removed (if it had ever had them) and was the radar post moved to the front? Note that the a crew of three is indicated below the front cockpit -- but might this have changed?

 

[Roger Henderson]

I've collected a decent library of P-61 books and have been looking for some answered with respect to the top turret which gave Northrop a lot of trouble (buffeting), not to mention availability to the same turrets being prioritized for the B-29. One problem is that three of the books I have were written by the same author, and therefore, have what I believe to be the same incorrect or incomplete information.

In the Pacific theater, for example, it has become clear to me that most of the Widows that appear to have the top turret, do not (and I have the photos to prove it). In fact, what they do have is a four .50 cal MG installation which was fixed (did not rotate) with a streamlined cover distinctly different from the turret cover. These were apparently a field modification done in Hawaii. "Midnight Mickey" is an excellent example of a Widow so equipped.

However, in the ETO, the first P-61A's were delivered without turrets, nor have I identified any with the fixed .50 cal setup. In photos, these Black Widows are easy to spot, not just because they lack the turret, but because they were the only P-61's to receive invasion stripes.

With respect to the widows delivered without turrets, I've read some accounts that claim that they were, nonetheless, delivered with both of the elaborate remote gun sight units (gunner behind the pilot, as well as the for the radar operator in the back), as there was hope that the turrets would eventually be delivered and installed. Other accounts say they were removed for the considerable weight savings.

Further, I've read that the turretless P-61's eventually dispensed with the gunner position entirely, and moved the R.O. up to the front, leaving the rear seat empty. One pilot account (I'd have to find it) claimed that the overall weight reduction and shifting of the weight forward corrected what was, in his opinion, a too-aft CG which resulted in a slight nose-up flight angle, and that after the change, actually increased the top speed.

I'm including some pics of one of the better known turretless P-61's -- DOUBLE TROUBLE. OK experts, let me know your thoughts -- would this aircraft have had the gunsights removed (if it had ever had them) and was the radar post moved to the front? Note that the a crew of three is indicated below the front cockpit -- but might this have changed?View attachment 608215View attachment 608216View attachment 608217View attachment 608218View attachment 608219View attachment 608220

I understand that it was not the weight that was the factor with removing the upper turret but the flash of the guns was so bright that it temporarily blinded the gunner and the pilot. The weight of shot from the guns underneath was plenty enough to bring down the enemy aircraft.

 

[CATCH 22]

.....Note that the a crew of three is indicated below the front cockpit -- but might this have changed?

IMHO the third name is the one of the Crew Chief of the plane, not of the aerial gunner. The C.C. is the maintenance specialist.
This for example is the a/c of the C.O. of the 418-th NFS, Maj. Carroll C. Smith with R/O Philip B. Porter. The crew chief who's also listed didn't fly with them.

And another a/c from the same squadron has the C.C. listed separately:

BTW the C.C. S/Sgt Hansen is the guy in the middle, the pilot is on his left and the R/O is on his right. The a/c is a P-61A.
Cheers!