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Better not be too rude to others, either; if Rolls-Royce refer to compression ratio, in their engines, then who are we, following on behind, to put ourselves above them? Note that compression ratio and pressure ratio are not the same thing, either. CR measures the decrease in volume, while PR measures the increase in pressure; the two figures are never the same.
And it was called an intercooler (again by the manufacturers) because it was interposed between the compressor and the engine.
Edgar
So above a point, the amount of compression requires disproportionate amounts of energy to do it?Shortround6 said:The Merlin III didn't really have a pressure ratio of 3.5 to 1. it was more like 2.6-2.7 in service. You also have to know at what efficiency they pressure ratio is claimed.
I thought if heat went up, pressure went up?The Merlin III may have reached 3.5 but as the efficiency falls it requires more power to get the same compression and a larger amount of the power is converted to heating the intake charge vs actually compressing it.
I know heat would cause detonation, but I'm not an expert on the subject of heat on pressure and density: Heat seems to increase pressure, but reduce density; the opposite for cold.This becomes self defeating as the hotter charge is both actually less dense and more likely to suffer from detonation which limits the amount of boost you can actually use.
So basically, the idea is to distribute the pressurization across two stages, with each doing enough compression efficiently and avoiding excessive engine work, and heat to do it?Part of the reason the two stage superchargers were more efficient is that each stage operated at a lower pressure level than single stage superchargers.
The Early Merlin 61 operated at about 5.25 to 1 and to reach that each stage only needed to operate at 2.3 or some combination that would reach 5.25. (12lbs boost at 22-23,000ft?)
I'm curious why it increases to the square? It sounds like a simple/silly question, but I honestly don't have an answer: I merely memorize the rule, but honestly, I would have figured it'd gone up to the cube (length/width/height)...Power required for a supercharger goes up with the square of the impeller speed (tip speed) as a generality
Because the oil is slippery & lubricating...For the Germans the DB hydraulic coupling (NOT clutch) worked like a torque converter on an automatic transmission. The more oil in the casing the closer the output shaft matched the input shaft in rpm.
It seemed bizarre to me too! I didn't know exactly how it worked until now, but I did understand the variable-speed quality to it.For the DB the coupling at max slip drove the supercharger (though a gear set) at about 7 times crankshaft speed. as the plane climbed a control feed more oil into the coupling and the output shaft progressively gained rpm until it maxed out at about 10 times the crankshaft speed. This eliminated the need for different gears.
Is this similar to how a wing stalls?You can only drive a supercharger impeller so fast. Once the tip speed exceeds the speed of sound at the pressure/temperature inside the supercharger you get shockwaves which disrupt the airflow though the supercharger. That is you upper limit. Likewise there is a lower limit at which the airflow tends to breakdown or surge.
So a positive displacement pump is a pump that gets x-amount of air moved for a given number of rpm?Aircraft superchargers are not positive displacement pumps.
They need more energy to pressurize the air?I don't know much about Roots superchargers, but I believe they are generally less efficient, or maybe less effficient at high pressure ratios.
So, it had some uses!In any case, in 1939 Mercedes-Benz improved their W154 Grand Prix car by changing from the M154 V12 with two parallel Rootes type superchargers to the M163 with a two stage system with two Rootes type superchargers in series.
Positive displacement superchargers, such as the Roots supercharger, were of interest on automotive applications since the availability of useful boost at low engine speeds avoided problems with throttle lag and helped maintain the available engine power over a broad speed range. The BRM V16 racing car from the 1950s was unusual for the time in using a centrifugal supercharger. This experiment was unsuccessful - while the engine could achieve high power levels at high rpm levels, the power fell off badly as engine speed decreased. As a result, the unfortunate drivers often ended up having to frequently shift gears in order to maintain a reasonably optimal engine speed.They need more energy to pressurize the air?
So, it had some uses!
Secondly: Are there any inherent advantage in weight, compression, some practical variable by having two compressors with individual cases, or two in one case?
With the Merlin III having a pressure ratio of 3.5-to-1, the Merlin 25 at 4.5-to-1, and the Merlin 61 at 6.5-to-1 on two stages: I'm just trying to figure out how it didn't end up like 12.25-to-1 or 20.25-to-1?
I figure that there was some kind of loss by either
- Forcing the airflow through a a torturous path
- Some kind of effect of forcing the air through the after-cooler (drag)
Firstly: Aren't pretty much all twin-stage superchargers also twin-speed designs (if not more)?
I thought thrust loss was considerable for a turbocharger over a supercharger?The earliest report I`ve read where all the above was definitively stated regarding the two methods was 1931, although it is very likely that reports are available saying the same thing going back well into WW1.
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That's good to know...Sadly the earlier comment that two-stage centrifugal superchargers are more efficient than single-stage because they can operate each stage at lower tip speeds, is not the case.
When you say "choke" do you mean the air-pressure dams up?You also cannot lower the tip speed of a two stage blower for a given flow rate relative to a single-stage SC of the same overall size , because the flow rate is limited by choke at the inlet eye diameter of whatever the first stage is.
The charge-cooling radiator in a Merlin was called an intercooler when it was developed, and today we know an intercooler as the thing that goes between two boost stages and an aftercooler as the thing that goes between the last stage and the engine. That is with 80 years language "development," or "recession," depending on your age.
I thought thrust loss was considerable for a turbocharger over a supercharger?
As I understand it, the turbo is either bypassed at low-speed with the exhaust exiting an alternate pathway
I'm curious if as back-pressure drops, thrust increases (however little) as the energy to drive the turbine still leaves some surplus that can expand reasonably well against the airflow, or stays about the same?
I suppose that could be either corrected or simply pointed out "sometimes simply called a turbocharger"...The terminology has also changed over time. What we know now as a turbocharger started life as a turbo-supercharger. Hence, some people maintain the Allison has no supercharger because they heard that somewhere, have never seen a diagram of it, or else don't know what they are seeing when they look at it.
I wasn't talking about speed either, I was talking about altitude (there was a mention of exhaust thrust).The graph is brake horsepower - not airspeed.
It depends on the carburetor intake and the airflow pathwaysRam and thrust effects are important but are a whole other thing to explain
Now, that's something useful to knowThere is no generic way Turbos are installed.
I didn't know that, I just thought they bypassed all the turbo's at low-speed to avoid an over-boost.Its not very common to have a bypass to try to get thust
Straight forward enoughthrust only works well with short exhaust stacks with very carefully shaped outlets which converge to increase the gas speed.
The limiting factor usually seems to be the turbine, sometimes the compressor is the limit, regardless above 1,300 fps you usually would see a fall-off (not sure what you could do with modern aerodynamics: Some fan-blades on jets can reach up to Mach 1.4 -- 1,610 fps at sea-level and 32F -- before efficiency fades) even if.Backpressure reduces of course with altitude, this basically increases the pressure-ratio across the turbine, which is more or less free power. This helps the turbo the higher you go, sadly there is a limit to all this, which is usually that you cease being able to do much extra as the turbine shaft speed has definite limits before it flies apart/the bearings "go". So eventually you need to open a wastgate to dump exhaust gas to slow the turbine down.
LogicalThis is why on a real power/altitude graph on a Turbocharged plane you`ll see almost flat power up to a very high altitude, then a rapid fall off - thats when the turbine & compressor shaft has reached max rpm.
So basically it won't be able to continue to compress the air as efficiently at the minimum, it will produce disproportionate heat in the process, or actual pressure will lower to a point that it'll be impractical for use (even if above atmospheric) even if heat was not factored?Eventually you`ll also fall off the egde of the compressor map as well.......
So Y-axis is fuel burn, and X-axis is rotational velocity?This shows you the compressor map from a turbocharged German aero-engine.
So, the Y axis shows mass-flow?This shows you how air mass flow varies against altiutude at several different boost levels.
Once you reach the limit for flow at max shaft speed - power falls away drastically. Just like hitting your full throttle point in your top gear in a mech. driven SC.
I suppose that could be either corrected or simply pointed out "sometimes simply called a turbocharger".
It depends on the carburetor intake and the airflow pathways
The limiting factor usually seems to be the turbine
It was never referred to as a turbocharger in slang prior to that?I have never seen it called a turbocharger in the English language during ww2, in a survey of thousands of archive documents. The term has a definite chronological impact - and is therefore not a "sometimes". 1965 is the first date it was used in any aerospace context in America (NASA-SP-7016, REV. 2) & the earliest UK refence to the term "turbocharger" is 1947 and the first appearance of it on https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive is 1970.
So, I could say "in modern days, turbosuperchargers are now called turbochargers", correct?So it is misleading to say it is "sometimes called a turbocharger". It was called turbosupercharger before the end of ww2
What's a choke exactly?I suspect I`m overcomplicating what you are trying to say here but for your information German engines didnt have carburettors - and hence had NO chokes
That would mean the change in velocity -- I have trouble grasping that one. With radiators, if I recall the goal is to decelerate the airflow to exploit pressure; then run it through the radiator where it heats up and expands, with a reducing velocity and a pressure drop across the rear-side?correcting for pressure drop across the choke
Okay, but to be clear, adiabatic means a closed system where heat does not exit the system?Had mGS = Pressure Head Adiabatic (Had) in meters of gas column (mGS) (this axis would be labelled Pressure Ratio in Allied compressor maps, which is a totally different way of representing the pressure generation capacity of the compressor - but basically you can look at it as in y+ axis = more flow).
So either 1.00 or 0.98 atms?ata = "technical atmospheres" absolute manifold pressure ~ more or less 1 Bar (0.98)
Okaym^3/s = cubic meters per second (aka volumetric flow rate of the compressor)
So, I could say "in modern days, turbosuperchargers are now called turbochargers", correct?