Unlikely Adversaries !

[MikeGazdik]

Lets put two aircraft against each other, that historically fought side by side.

My first two pairings: P-51B/C/D Mustang VS Spitfire Mk IX to XIV.

and: Messerschmitt Bf109 F/G/K VS Focke Wulf Fw 190 A6/7/8 and 190D

Feel free to add others. 1 on 1 dogfight, begins at the altitude of your choice! I say, in my first pairing, the Spit Mk IX beats the Mustang. (ouch) And in the 2nd, the Bt109 prevails!

 

[Siegfried]

A P-51B is 36mph faster than an Spitfire IX at high altitudes and more like 45 mph at low altitudes and can always use this to dictate the engagment despite a slight turn radious disadvantage.
The Spitifre XIV has about the same speed above 20,000 to 25,000 but is slightly slower below.

Climb rate would generally go to the Spitifres bearing in mind that the P-51 climb is lower due to its much higher fuel capacity.

I would see the Mk XIV as a serious challenge to the P-51 but the Mk IX not in the same league. The Mk XIV lost manouverabillity but whether this was so serious its turn was disadvantaged compared to the P-51 I have no information.

 

[eagledad]

Hello

In early 1944, the 31st Fighter Group was converting from Spitfires to Mustangs. After some time for pilots to get familiar with the Mustang, an informal dogfight was conducted between the Spitfire Mk IX and the P-51B. The result- both pilots concluded that the Spitfire had won the fight. The IX could out climb, out accelerate and out maneuver the P-51. The Mustang could out dive and out run the Spit. Now, I would guess that the 2 pilots each were more familiar with the Spitfire than the Mustang, but at least in this case, the Spitfire won.

Eagledad

The above can be found in Flying American Combat Aircraft of WWII pg 315

 

[MikeGazdik]

I understand the Spit IX is slower. I'm not sure of the climb numbers, but I think they may be as big of an edge in favor of the Spit as the speed is for the Mustang. I love all of these aircraft so some are hard decisions. I still say the Spitfire would win more often than not.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Spits and Mustangs did fight each other in combat...

 

[MikeGazdik]

I recall that and cannot think right now. An Israeli war?

 

[evangilder]

I'm guessing in one of the South American wars.

 

[Njaco]

ohhh, I don't think this thread is gonna last long.

And you may have had Bf109 against Fw190s later in the war when Yugo/Hungary/Bulgaria turned on the Axis and fought against them. Going off memory here, so I may be incorrect.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I recall that and cannot think right now. An Israeli war?

Yes to a point. The IDF did have at least 2 Mustangs during the 48' war.

 

[PJay]

How about a late-model Mosquito nightfighter vs a Black Widow? At night of course.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I stand corrected - The IDF had Mustangs and the EAF had Spits. I show most IDF claims against the EAF Spits were done in the Avia S199. The EAF claimed a P-51 in a MC205 in Jan, 1949. Spits and Mustangs "may" have met over the Middle East, as far as drawing blood on each other, seems it didn't happen.

BTW a IDF Mustang did shoot down an RAF Mosquito Nov 20, 1948

 

[Jenisch]

There was also the "Football War" between Honduras and El Salvador in 1969. Corsairs and P-51s fought each other. This was the last war were piston fighters performed air combat.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

There was also the "Football War" between Honduras and El Salvador in 1969. Corsairs and P-51s fought each other. This was the last war were piston fighters performed air combat.

Classic! I've mentioned Mike Alba on this forum a few times, flew P-38s and P-51s with the 55th FG. After the war he trained and help set up a number of Latin and South American Air Forces training commands. One of his students was Maj. Fernando Soto.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/post-war/last-corsair-kills-f4u-vs-p-51s-7961.html#post246807

 

[Jenisch]

Interesting flyboy, thanks. I would enjoy see guncam footage of the aircraft in this conflict.

 

[andy2012]

What about A6M5 Zero V.Ki-61 Tony?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Interesting flyboy, thanks. I would enjoy see guncam footage of the aircraft in this conflict.

Yep!

Here's another interesting one Fred DeLarm...

"The replacement of the democratic government by a military junta resulted in a complete destabilisation of Guatemala. Already on 2 August 1954, there was a mutiny of Military Academy cadets, supported by a better part of the Guatemalan Army – disappointed over betrayal of the 1944 revolution. When the remnants of the Liberation Army were attacked at Roosevelt Hospital, the F-47N flown by DeLarm strafed them: other USAF pilots were at La Aurora AB at the time as well, after delivering three F-51Ds from the 182nd Fighter Squadron ANG, and they were ordered to shot DeLarm down. While attempting to reach their aircraft, however, they were stopped by Army troops supportive for mutiniers. After short negotiations, USAF pilots were - at gun-point - put into an USAF Douglas C-54 transport that brought ammunition for the three Mustangs, and flown out of the country.

Meanwhile, DeLarm's attack showed no results and the Thunderbolt was damaged by ground fire; the revolt was settled through negotiation. Many Guatemalan officers had to leave the country, while all the revolting cadets were purged from the military."

He claimed to have shot down a Costa Rican P-51 in 1954

Guatemala since 1954

 

[Siegfried]

There was also the "Football War" between Honduras and El Salvador in 1969. Corsairs and P-51s fought each other. This was the last war were piston fighters performed air combat.

I know Sth Americans are fanatic about soccer but wouldn't a penalty shoot out be a better way of deciding a match?

 

[Jenisch]

I know Sth Americans are fanatic about soccer but wouldn't a penalty shoot out be a better way of deciding a match?

Those were from Central America. But anyway, in Latin America by logic it would have been more easy Brazilians and Argentines fight a war because soccer than them.

 

[davebender]

That almost never happens. Let's try something more reasonable.

8 December 1941 (Philippine time). Approximately 12 noon.
Iba and Clark airfields are attacked by elements of IJN 11th Air Fleet.
With the assistance of Freya radar, JG26 intercepts the Japanese air raids. Similiar to historical interceptions of RAF Circus air attacks on France.

 

[evangilder]

That's the one I was thinking about, actually, Jenisch. I couldn't remember the aircraft involved but did remembering both sides using American hardware.