US Coastal Air Defences in WW2

[wuzak]

What was the state of coastal air defence of the United States during WW2?

I Imagine that the east coast would be well defended due to the concentration of industry in that region, the north east in particular.

My question stems from the start of this Megaprojects video, in which the myth of a bomber flight to the US east coast is mentioned.



I would think that such a flight would have been intercepted by US aircraft.

 

[glennasher]

Republic, Grumman and Vought were all in close proximity to each other and the Long Island Sound, so anything trying to sneak into NYC would have plenty of opposition to their intrusions, I'd think. Then, you've got Brewster and Curtiss a little further north and inland, so somebody, somewhere, would be able to put out the welcome mat for any errant Germans flying in from Norway or wherever.
Didn't matter anyway, no German aircraft had the range to get there with a payload and get back home afterwards.

 

[ThomasP]

The US established the Air Warning Service and Air Warning Corp along with some of the associated radar stations before/at-the-start of WWII. The number of stations increased during the war along with the capabilities. In some ways it was a fairly sophisticated effort. See:

"Aircraft Warning Service - Wikipedia"

"Aircraft Warning Corps - Wikipedia"

"Northeastern WWII Radar Sites - FortWiki Historic U.S. and Canadian Forts"

"Bethany Beach WWII Radar Site (2) - FortWiki Historic U.S. and Canadian Forts"

 

[pinehilljoe]

"All hypothetical on the What ifs" I can't help thinking the initial attacks would have been met with little coordinated defense. It took a year for ADM King to finally organize a system of Coastal Convoys to combat the U-Boats, Operation Drumbeat was the second Happy Time for the U-boats. Did anything like Fighter Command or the Kammhuber line of an integrated system exist?

 

[wuzak]

The US established the Air Warning Service and Air Warning Corp along with some of the associated radar stations before/at-the-start of WWII.

You mean at the start of USA's involvement in the war?

 

[BlackSheep]

Republic, Grumman and Vought were all in close proximity to each other and the Long Island Sound, so anything trying to sneak into NYC would have plenty of opposition to their intrusions, I'd think. Then, you've got Brewster and Curtiss a little further north and inland, so somebody, somewhere, would be able to put out the welcome mat for any errant Germans flying in from Norway or wherever.
Didn't matter anyway, no German aircraft had the range to get there with a payload and get back home afterwards.

I know some axis factories had their own defensive fighters, did American factories do the same, maintain a private security Airforce?

 

[ThomasP]

Hey wuzak,

In early 1941 the US government quietly gave word to the American Legion that it would be useful to have a civilian air watch service to protect the US coastline and the Mexican border. The Air Warning Service of May 1941 was the initial result. The AWS subsequently was absorbed by the Army's Ground Observer Corp in early-'42. During the war the vast majority of the members of the organization were civilians, with military personnel operating in some supervisory and advisory roles, but for the most part civilian run (including the filter centers) right upto the final commo links to the Army Air Force radar stations.

"The 1.5 million civilian observers at 14,000 coastal observation posts performed naked eye and binocular searches to detect German or Japanese aircraft. Observations were telephoned to filter centers, which in turn forwarded authenticated reports to the Air Warning Service, which also received reports from Army Radar Stations." See:

"Ground Observer Corps - Wikipedia"

 

[glennasher]

I know some axis factories had their own defensive fighters, did American factories do the same, maintain a private security Airforce?

I would assume that would be the case, there should be plenty of aircraft available coming off the lines, and with flight testing, etc. there were probably plenty of them that were armed.

 

[special ed]

The Civil Air Patrol was formed Dec 1st 1941 made up of civilians and their own planes to patrol the coasts mostly for ships/subs but would have seen aircraft also.

 

[Tkdog]

So, there are like 10 different "almost were" high performance planes that the US cancelled or decelerated in 1944-5. If we give the Germans their transatlantic super bomber in meaningful numbers than maybe the US gets the P-81 or the Uber thunderbolt.

Certainly a transatlantic bomber would have some element of surprise. But between radar picket ships and land based radar interception strategies would develop quickly - assuming the flights aren't intercepted on the UK end. Certainly the US had any number of options for interceptors

 

[special ed]

That's what the YFM-1 was for.
It's a joke, son, just a joke.

 

[GrauGeist]

U.S. manufacturers did not have their own "factory defense" units.
Most aircraft manufacturing plants on either coast were within proximity of Navy Air Stations or Army Airfields.
Between 1941 and 1945, the coasts (east, West and Gulf) had Navy ASW patrols (airships and aircraft), Army patrols (including ASW) and Civil Air Patrol.
On the west coast, the Army and Navy both, even had aircraft based inland (one to two hundred miles) in a chain of air fields that extended from southern California to Washington State.

In the initial days of the war (for the U.S.), patrols were mounted by what was on hand and as time passes, these second line aircraft were replaced by newer types.
For example, here In Redding (Northern California, 100 miles inland from the coast), Northrop A-17s were based at Benton Field (O85) by the week following Pearl Harbor and conducted routine patrols until replaced by newer type (and a new airfield was built by the Army in 1942).
On the coast, B-18s conducted patrols until replaced by B-17s although the B-18 did continue ASW patrols in the Caribbean (accounting for sinking U-654 on 22 August 42 and U-512 on 2 October 42).

 

[Shortround6]

The US built around five hundred 120mm AA guns during WW II. Mostly in 1944-45 .
Air defense was not all fighters.
The US had a number of 90mm AA guns and some 105mm AA guns in addition to radar units, gun directors and other elements of air defense.

 

[EwenS]

550 x 4.7" (120mm) between March 1943 and April 1944 (400 in 1943 & 150 in 1944). All were retained in the USA.

7,831 x 90mm of various models produced from Feb 1941 to Oct 1944 when all programmes were completed. Earlier versions were modernised from April 1944 to the end of the war. These served in all theatres.

The other calibre was the 105mm M1927 later redesignated the 105mm AA gun M3. This was a rare piece with there only being 13 still in service in July 1940 with all being in the Panama Canal Zone.

Until at least early 1944 there were USAAF fighter groups forming and working up along the east coast before moving overseas. On at least one occasion in 1943 a P-47 squadron arranged a "private war" with a British Corsair squadron also working up in the area.

In 1945 there was still a USAAF fighter group maintained in Hawaii for the defence of the islands. That was the 508th FG. They acquired secondary roles training pilots for front line units and ferrying aircraft.

 

[drgondog]

I know some axis factories had their own defensive fighters, did American factories do the same, maintain a private security Airforce?

no

 

[muskeg13]

The US established the Air Warning Service and Air Warning Corp along with some of the associated radar stations before/at-the-start of WWII. The number of stations increased during the war along with the capabilities. In some ways it was a fairly sophisticated effort. See:

"Aircraft Warning Service - Wikipedia"

"Aircraft Warning Corps - Wikipedia"

"Northeastern WWII Radar Sites - FortWiki Historic U.S. and Canadian Forts"

"Bethany Beach WWII Radar Site (2) - FortWiki Historic U.S. and Canadian Forts"

True story that attests to Home Front commitment to the war effort: My great aunt was a part-time civilian air spotter when away from her regular job at the east coast Yorktown Naval Mine Depot. This was while her husband, a career Marine, was fighting at Guadalcanal and elsewhere in the South Pacific.

 

[Shortround6]

no

Maybe?????
For some reason a couple of P-40s (2) were located at the Buffalo Factory for quite sometime and don't seem to have have been used for experimental work or development work but were in combat condition.
However just 2 planes doesn't seem to be a very effective force and one would have wonder what they were guarding against. The Canadians?
Grumman, Republic and Vaught were all east or south east of New York and much more exposed than Buffalo.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

IIrc there were a couple of bases in New Jersey used to train and finish squadrons before deployment to ETO, I imagine they were on the table for air defense if push came to shove -- which it wouldn't given the lack of a suitable German bomber to do the mission.

A German air-strike upon the East Coast is something I regard as Wehraboo territory.

 

[GrauGeist]

A German air-strike upon the East Coast is something I regard as Wehraboo territory.

In those days, no one was taking chances, as they had no idea what the Axis was capable of. Look how the West Coast was under constant fear of a Japanese invasion.

In the east, it was discovered that Germany had weather stations in Greenland, which were supplied by ship and by aircraft (like the Do26), so an attack on the east coast was not impossible if the Germans wanted to make the effort (at great expense for little gain).

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

In those days, no one was taking chances, as they had no idea what the Axis was capable of. Look how the West Coast was under constant fear of a Japanese invasion.

In the east, it was discovered that Germany had weather stations in Greenland, which were supplied by ship and by aircraft (like the Do26), so an attack on the east coast was not impossible if the Germans wanted to make the effort (at great expense for little gain).

Right, I'm not criticizing defense choices made back then, only criticizing (admittedly, with hindsight) the idea that the LW was capable of mounting such a raid. They never fielded a plane capable of it in numbers meaningful to even one mission, much less a campaign.