USAF to Order New F-15's

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MIflyer

1st Lieutenant
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May 30, 2011
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The Air Force appears to have abandoned its previous plans to phase out the F-15C and now plans to order new production F-15's for the first time in 15 years.

Cost of a new F-15: $29M each

Cost of an F-35: $300 each.

Source: Aviation Week
 
Only $300 for a F-35? I'll take 4 please...

Seriously though... Aside from the obvious cost benefit of getting more -15's over the costs of the -35 or even F-22, I wonder why not F-16 instead?
Also, more airframes is never a bad thing, but how does this all wash out when there is such a shortage of pilots?
 
The Israeli AF is buying more F-15s and cutting back their F-35 buy ... strategy is to use F-35s as Wild Weasels to take out air defense threats, followed by F-15s carring much, much heavier munitions load ... Israel has negotiated with Boeing to buy the newest version F-15 and, as part of that deal, Boeing will upgrade an equivalent number of in-service Israeli F-15s to the latest version. Smart deal!! Japan is thinking in very much the same way in terms of F-15+F-35 interoperations. Japan would like to sell some of its oldest F-15s to other, poorer, Asian neighbours in response to the aggressive Chinese build out.
So it seems the F-15 production line will stay open for the life of this build and we will see what transpires ... the F-35 could be good news for the F-15, F-16 and F-18 fleets in allied AFs around the world.
 
The 29 Million has got to be a very, very old price for a F-15
(I'd bet the last sales price was closer to 80-90 million or more.)
I suspect the price of the F-35 is now down to around 90 million
Different airplanes, different missions.
 
I am wondering if the Israeli's are going to buy F-15E's as opposed to the F-15C's that the OP alludes to (but doesn't explicitly say).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not being critical in anyway, and you can count me as a F-15 fan. I just find it interesting and would like to better understand the thinking behind it as opposed to other choices available.
 
I think that any new F-15's built will be F-15E equivalents or better. The original F-15 had zero air to ground capability but the F-15E has a great deal of strike capability as well as undiminished air to air capability. The F-15 Silent Eagle is an F-15 design with stealth features added, including an internal weapons bay. Obviously other more straightforward upgrades are possible.

By the way, to modify what I listed before, the current day equivalent price of a new F-15 is estimated at $47M and the $300M cost would be for a next generation fighter after 2030. The USAF was supposed to have over 700 F-35's by now but has less than 200. F-35 production had been stretched out to 2044, but they do not plan to buy any fewer of them.

Consider, the Indian AF is considering buying new F-16's a mere 42 years after that design came out.....
 


The F-15C/Ds ended production in 1985*. Since then, except as noted below, all F-15s built have been 2-seaters based on the F-15E's stronger & heavier airframe.

The ~$30 million for F-15s was 20 years ago (for aircraft that had ended production 13 years before that - it reflects the last production costs adjusted to FY 98 dollars):
F-15A/B: US$27.9 million (1998)
F-15C/D: US$29.9 million (1998)
F-15E: The 18-unit FY 1996-1998 buy had a unit cost of $55 million. The last unit price paid by the USAF for an F-15E was $75 million, for the FY 2001 buy.
F-15K: US$100 million (2006) (for an "all the bells&whistles multirole fighter export version" for Korea).**
F-15SA (2011) for Saudi Arabia was valued at a program unit cost of $135.7 million (84 aircraft).

The newest version of the F-15 to enter production is the F-15QA for Qatar - the first of an initial order of 36 (half the authorized 72 total) began production in August 2018. The only price I can find is $293 million per aircraft, including its "associated weapons package".
This version includes "full digital fly-by-wire" and a new wing design (virtually identical in exterior shape & size, but redesigned internally for longer service-life/greater strength). Any new USAF production is supposed to use this new wing - and there is talk of rewinging some existing USAF F-15s with this wing.

Boeing Now Building Qatar's F-15s as Part of the Eagle's Renaissance
New wings on Qatar F-15s pave upgrade path for USAF


The $300 million is for the proposed "6th-gen" fighter.

The latest purchase contract for F-35s has a per-aircraft price of:
F-35A: $89.2M (low rate initial production lot 11 (LRIP 11) including F135 engine, cost in 2020 to be $80M)
F-35B: US$115.5M (LRIP 11 including engine)
F-35C: US$107.7M (LRIP 11 including engine)
http://www.jsf.mil/news/docs/20180927_LRIP_11_Press_Release_v2.pdf



* The Japanese-built ones, the only ones built outside the US, ended production in 1997.

** http://tealgroup.com/images/TGCTOC/sample-wmcab2.pdf - bottom of page 5.
 
The reported cost to the RAAF for its 75 x F-35s is $85m each. According to our appraisals, there is no comparison between the F-35 and f-15.

Not sure how much of an advantage upgraded F-15Cs have over other gen 4.5 contenders. Though for all intents and purposes the Eagle is still a tough costumer in terms of air superiority (the western standard). The F-15C was originally to be replaced by the F-22 but because of economy, politics, situation (at the time), and of course overall general public ignorance, the F-22 was canned and neutered to the small fleet of today. For this reason the USAF has no choice but to keep the F-15 as long as possible. Eventually as the F-35 numbers grow along with block upgrades and upgrades for the F-22, the USAF will EVENTUALLY retire the F-15C and I can see squadrons being restructured for the F-35. The USAF has stated that the F-35 is NOT an air superiority platform like its big brother but it they will make do with the F-35 picking up air superiority roles and even as a 'make do" a/c with fully 45 years+ advantage in technology over the basic Eagle it can still fly rings around the earlier bird. For this reason the USAF will push hard to keep the original planed intended number of F-35As and not accept F-15s held together with spit and glue basically. .

There has already been much discussion about the possibility of the "Advanced Super Hornet" here in Oz, and the F-18 is nearly half a generation ahead of the f-15. From what I gather, the cost would out weigh the benefit. Why spend money making a Super Hornet into the "Advanced" Super Hornet (or whatever Boeing had in mind...) when it wont be anywhere near the LO performance and wont offer as much capability as future block F-35s. The people in charge in the US need to start facing reality.....the old "has beens" just cannot achieve the goals being set for them. Securing your nations future doesn't come for free. Get on with the F-35 program for petes sake.
 
First off, I'm an F-15 fan. Worked them for most of my AF career. Now, comparing an F-15C air superiority fighter to an F-35 duel/multi-role strike fighter, is apples to pears. This not only covers role of the aircraft, but of the pilot as well. It's been said, a jack of all trades is a master of none. This holds true, in spades during many occasions, for the platform, and the person operating it. If you arrived at home to find a water leak, would you call the general handyman who does carpentry work, installs windows and doors, paints, and on occasion changed a few faucets, or do you call a plumber? Also, using Israel as an example, who currently operate F-15's (both air superiority and strike versions), they'd be procuring a familiar platform that doesn't require additional, and different, logistical support. To be clear, I'm not knocking the F-35. But, it is new, unproven, and still suffers growing pains. Most of the integrated avionics used in the F-22 and F-35 can be incorporated into the F-15.
 
Even beyond all discussed here - this is just "a plan." No "order,"No RFQ, No bid, No contract, just "a plan." And even if this was a viable event I would bet dollars to donuts that 1. A 2019 F-15 IS NOT going to cost $29 million a copy and 2. There are many within the USAF that would opt to buy F-22's in lieu of a nearly 50 year old design, and that's not taking anything away from the F-15.

A souped up A-7, putting bombs on the F-14, and a "Super F-4" were also discussed when these airframes were in their twilight
 
Last edited:
Fighterguy said:
Most of the integrated avionics used in the F-22 and F-35 can be incorporated into the F-15.
Click to expand...
While that sounds easy, it's not.

The systems aboard the F-22 and F-35 are unique to each type and retro-fitting those systems to the F-15 would be like me taking the engine and body computer systems in my 2011 Chevy HHR and retro-fitting them to my 1962 Chevy Nova.

It can be done, but the effort alone simply is not worth it, let alone the cost.
 

On the F-15, it has a hot production line and most likely fewer vendor support problems than the F-22.

I saw the A-7F make it's first TO and it was very, very impressive. (It was also very,very light.) The F-14 always had the Air to Ground Mode, but even with LANTIRN, we still had degraded all WX capabilities. (But we could still tote more further than the -18C/D.)
It would have been fun to see the PW1120 installed in the F-4. (Aside from the Bleed Air Horns and the Secondary AB Nozzles, I liked the J79.)
 
jetcal1 said:
On the F-15, it has a hot production line and most likely fewer vendor support problems than the F-22.
Click to expand...
What's your definition of a "hot production line"? Is the tooling adequate to build what's being advertised in that article?
The "Top Bomb" or "Bomb Cat" wasn't really discussed until the F-14D was kicked about, but by that time it was a pipe dream at sunset.
 

The "A" model was flown with Mk 82 on AIM-54 Pallets during testing and we always had the switches in the cockpit with some limited capabilities designed into the AWG-9 from the time we transitioned from F-4's in 1980. This was well before the -71 that went into the B's and D's.
I think some clearance missions were flown at Fallon/PT. Mugu in '91 with clearance coming in early 93(?). I know we were totin' stuff off the pointy end of my ship by '96 with LANTIRN and the AWG-9. That was 10 years before it retired. Not exactly sunset. But about 2/3rds of the way through it's fleet life cycle.
And we could carry more, further than the C/D Hornets onboard. (I believe our bring back was better as well.)
And BTW, I liked the F-18. We could do engine work in 12 hours (1 shift) that took 4 days (8 shifts) with the TF30, and the F110 was very awkward to move around in the IM-2 spaces. (BTW, I was NEC 8345/6415, and 6422. F-14 O level, TF30 I level and Test Cell Operator and spent around 13 years with the airplane. A, A+, B, and D.
 
"A hot production line means there is product rolling down the line and the vendors and suppliers are in place. Will it be completely 100% ready to go with the "new version" I doubt it. ( But, then again, we can't even get LMCO to freeze the design on a simple air pressure gauge for a certain airplane.) But, I'd bet the line could handle a modern production rate after handling the A/C/E models. (Assuming the jigs aren't worn out.) And, that if needed airplanes will be delivered in a PMC status with contractor field teams to follow."

It sounds like you work at a LMCO subcontractor - there are times where decisions are made at the prime level that are generated by the government, like the F-35 "cost over-runs" which (as you may know) is nothing more than the government willing to accept a price increase for a given task or service or for an add on. I just left a job where I spent 14 years working with folks from AETC and many of them were Eagle drivers. As much as the F-15 is loved, re-opening this line would be recognized as a step backwards as right now the USAF has sold it's sole to the F-22 and F-35.
 
"The "A" model was flown with Mk 82 on AIM-54 Pallets during testing and we always had the switches in the cockpit with some limited capabilities designed into the AWG-9 from the time we transitioned from F-4's in 1980. This was well before the -71 that went into the B's and D's.

I think some clearance missions were flown at Fallon/PT. Mugu in '91 with clearance coming in early 93(?). I know we were totin' stuff off the pointy end of my ship by '96 with LANTIRN and the AWG-9. That was 10 years before it retired. Not exactly sunset. But about 2/3rds of the way through it's fleet life cycle.

And we could carry more, further than the C/D Hornets onboard. (I believe our bring back was better as well.)

And BTW, I liked the F-18. We could do engine work in 12 hours (1 shift) that took 4 days (8 shifts) with the TF30, and the F110 was very awkward to move around in the IM-2 spaces. (BTW, I was NEC 8345/6415, and 6422. F-14 O level, TF30 I level and Test Cell Operator and spent around 13 years with the airplane. A, A+, B, and D."

And at the end of the day the powers to be at NAVAIR let the -14 go away despite the article about the F-14D (similar to the one posted by the OP). I worked with both Hornet and Tomcat maintainers at Pt. Mugu during the late 1990s, early 2000s and the consensus was the -14 needed to go away and there was great love for the Hornet
 
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