Usage of radars at Russian front

Discussion in 'Radar' started by tomo pauk, Apr 2, 2011.

  1. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    Would like to know more about the use of radars, by both sides. So please post something you know, any time frame :)
     
  2. ctrian

    ctrian Banned

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    You'll have to look up A radar history of World War II: technical and military imperatives it mentions the information you need.If i remember correctly neither side made much use of radar.The Germans used a radar train during the battle of Kursk and foiled a Soviet surprise attack,plus they had some night fighters which were controlled from radar stations.The Russians were more backwards in the quality and use of their equipment but they received high quality sets from Lend Lease,which they copied.
     
  3. Juha

    Juha Well-Known Member

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    Hello Tomo
    My understanding is that there were rather many LW radars along the eastern front.

    Soviet Union also had its rudimentary radars already in 1939, RUS-1 and RUS-2 types, IIRC. They were used already during the Winter War (30 Nov 39 – 13 March 40). I have some basic info on those two radar types somewhere but I don’t have time to dig that out just now. Late April hopefully I’ll have more time. But SU produced during the war 775 radars, so not too many when compared the radar production in USA, in UK and in Germany.

    Juha
     
  4. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    don't forget the LW/KM joint effort on the Nachtjagdbegleitschiff "TOGO". the Russians never found here as she was constantly on the move ushering NF's from NJG 6 and NJG 100 onto Soviet craft in her career right till war's end.
     
  5. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    #5 tomo pauk, Apr 2, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2011
    I'll then remember it 1st; it took me a few seconds to recognize that TOGO was actually a ship.
    Usage of trains ships for radar coverage of, basically, land air war was a neat idea indeed.

    Thanks for contributions :)
     
  6. Glider

    Glider Well-Known Member

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    Russia started the war with the RUS 1 and RUS 2 but the RUS 1 was discounted only 13 units built in 1941 and it utterly failed in action. RUS-2 was of some use as an air warning radar but impractical unless fixed around a large target such as a city. For example its transmitter and receiver had to be seperated by a kilometer and despite this the antennas had to move with each other. As I said impractical by any standard.
    A design was developed that shared a common antenna but only 53 were built in 1942. When you consider the numbers lost in the retreat these numbers were insignificant. Its also worth noting that these sets didn't give any indication of height an obvious problem.

    The experimental and development station at Leningrad was thrown into the front line due to the German advances and put radar in front of the leadership. Basically they developed one large radar based on the RUS-2 with a 270 degree arc that gave enough warning of German attacks that the fighters could be launched in defence of the city with every raid identified and defended against but they still didn't have any height readings, but it was a lot better than nothing and the Luftwaffe tended to stay at low/medium altitude reducing the problem.

    Germany gave Finland 4 Wurzburg radars and 2 Freyas which were manned by schoolboys!!.

    Russia tried to develop a number of gun laying radars but failed and these were scrapped. The British sent numbers of the GL mark II to Russia who really liked them and they produced there own copy called SON-2 but only built 124 in the entire war. Later Russia received 44 GL mark III, 25 SCR-268, 15 SCR-545 and 49 SCR-584

    This information is distilled from : Technical and Military Imperatives - A radar history of World War II
     
  7. parsifal

    parsifal Well-Known Member

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    According to hardesty (red Phoenix) the Soviet army alone was supplied with over 1474 gun laying radars. Virtually every major warship from Frigate and above was supplied with at least one radar set. VVS was supplied with over 2626 air defence radars according to a summary i have of the the annual lend lease protocols that detail the goods shipped to the USSR by the allies. One estimate of the amount of materiel received from the west places the number of individual sets at over 5000. The Soviets were provided with an extensive spare parts regime and training for all three services.

    In addition the Soviet navy, at least, produced a number of indigenous sets, that were most probably reverse engineered from Allied supplied equipment. It has to be said, however that production and usage of inigenous material limited, and virtually non-existent, until the very end of the war, at least for their navy. The information that I have (based on the Nav weapons data) is as follows

    Redut-K
    Became Operational: 1940
    War Status: Used on CL Molotov
    Purpose: Air Warning
    Wavelength: 4 meters
    Power Output: 50 KW
    Range: 64.8 nm
    Remarks: First Soviet ship-based radar system. Modification of the RUS-2 land radar.


    Gyuis
    Became Operational: 1944
    War Status: Not accepted for production.
    Purpose: Air Warning
    Wavelength: 1.4 meters
    Power Output: 80 KW
    Range: 25 nm
    Remarks: First in the series of Gyuis air detection radars used on Soviet ships after World War II. The prototype was trialed on the destroyer Gromkii and used on it until the end of the war.

    Gyuis-1
    Became Operational: 1944
    War Status: Installed on several destroyers
    Purpose: Air Warning
    Wavelength: 1.4 meters
    Power Output: 80 KW
    Range: 25 nm
    Remarks: Used until the end of the war, but not accepted into production

    Gyuis-1M
    Became Operational: 1945
    War Status: Used on Pr. 30K destroyers after the war
    Purpose: Air Warning
    Wavelength: N/A
    Power Output: N/A
    Range: about 16 nm air / about 6.5 nm surface
    Remarks: Trialed on destroyer Strogyi at the end of 1944.

    Gyuis-1B
    Became Operational: 1945-6
    War Status: Used on many post war Soviet warships
    Purpose: Air and Surface Search
    Wavelength: N/A
    Power Output: N/A
    Range: 28.6 against aircraft / 10.25 Surface
    Remarks: Tested on the DD Ognevoy in Oct-Nov 1945.

    Mars-1 (Redan-1)
    Became Operational: 1945-6
    War Status: Used on many post war Soviet warships
    Purpose: Cruiser Main Caliber Fire-Control
    Wavelength: N/A
    Power Output: N/A
    Range: 9.75 nm
    Remarks: Developed in 1945. Tested in July-August 1945 on the Cruiser Molotov. Test went satisfactory and the system was accepted in service as Redan-1.

    Mars-2 (Redan-2)
    Became Operational: 1945-6
    War Status: Used on many post war Soviet warships
    Purpose: Destroyer Main Caliber Fire-Control
    Wavelength: N/A
    Power Output: N/A
    Range: 9.75 nm
    Remarks: Developed in 1945 simultaneously with Mars-1. Tested in 1945 on the DD Ognevoy. Test went satisfactory and the system was accepted in service as Redan-2.

    Vympel-2
    Became Operational: 1945-6
    War Status: Used on many post war Soviet warships
    Purpose: Anti-Aircraft Fire-Control
    Wavelength: N/A
    Power Output: N/A
    Range: about 6.5 nm
    Remarks: Used on Pr. 30K destroyers

    nav weapons also says this....."Most of the radars used by the Soviet Navy during World War II were from Lend-Lease. The first Lend-Lease radars started to arrive in the USSR in 1942 and by the end of the war most of the large warships were equipped by some sort of radar".

    The radars provided to the Soviet Navy were among the latest and best produced by the allies. several sources that I have say that the latest and best technologies of the allies were withheld by the allies, but i have not found any hard evidence to support those claims. certainly the radar suites of their major warships by wars end seemed to be very impressive. this is the thing about research of soviet technologies and lend lease to russia in particular....its full of half truths and downright lies by both pro- and anti soviet supporters. You have to try your best and ddetermine fact from fiction.

    Good sources (IMO) for background reading that I would recommend:

    hardesty - Red Phoenix
    Claws of the bear - The red Army since 1917
    Razvitie Sovetskoy Radiolokatsionnoy Tekhniki" (Development of the Soviet Radar Technology) by M.M. Lobanov
    "Sovetskie Boevye Korabli 1941-45: IV Vooruzhnie" (Soviet Warships 1941-45: Volume IV Armament) by A.V. Platonov
    February 2002 issue of Taifun Magazine Magazine

    My opinion is that soviet use of radar by the beginning of 1944 was very extensive and up to date.
     
  8. Glider

    Glider Well-Known Member

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    #8 Glider, Apr 3, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2011
    The figures I have are a little different. According to War department records prepared by the Chief of Finance of the War Office the Russians received the following in addition to the British sets


    Total Ground Radar 170 sets
    SCR 268 - 25 sets
    SCR 270 - 3 sets
    SCR 271 - 3 sets
    SCR 502 - 1 set
    SCR 545 - 15 sets
    SCR 547 - 4 sets
    SCR 584 - 49 sets
    SCR 602 - 10 sets
    SCR 682 - 2 sets
    IFF - 58 sets

    I certainly agree that the Naval vessels would have taken their radar with them but the above seem to be the numbers from two sources. From this I cannot see where the 4-5000 figure comes from.

    I shold add that the USSR received 370 airborne radar sets
    SCR 695 - 320 sets
    SCR 718 - 50 sets
     
  9. parsifal

    parsifal Well-Known Member

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    Hi Glider


    Thats a huge difference between our respective totals. i wonder why such a huge difference? I will re-check my sources and see if i have made any errors. What are the sources for your numbers BTW

    Regards

    Michael
     
  10. ctrian

    ctrian Banned

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  11. imalko

    imalko Well-Known Member

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    Some great info posted here guys. I remember mentions of radars being used by both sides in some books I've read, but must admit I haven't really researched this aspect of the air war in the East before.
     
  12. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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  13. Glider

    Glider Well-Known Member

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    He beat me to it. Darn

    Editorial

    What I find interesting is the editorial group includes Dr. Von Hardesty from USA (the author of Red Phoenix) and Carl-Fredric Geust from Finland (the author of the Red Stars series of books) so I am tempted to take it seriously.
     
  14. parsifal

    parsifal Well-Known Member

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    its a great find, i agree. I count 370 radar sets supplied at least, named as radar sets of US manufacture. however there are some general entries such as ground radar and ground radar - vehicle, that contains items that i cannot recognize in which i cannot recognise the individual item descriptors.

    the notes at the back of the list also says that the list excludes certain theatre transfers, which i am unsure the meaning of, and i am also unsure if the list includes british LL to the russians. It doesnt look as if it does, but then i may be wrong on this
     
  15. Glider

    Glider Well-Known Member

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    I am pretty confident that the list excludes any assistance that the UK gave to Russia. No British or Canadian transfers are noted, no Valantines, bren carriers etc.
     
  16. Juha

    Juha Well-Known Member

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  17. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    Radar - The Soviet Union WWII Part II
    All sorts of historical detail on this site.

    The Luftwaffe had mobile Freya early warning radar sets in Russia during June 1941. It appears the Soviets had a fixed radar set operating at Leningrad. Like almost everything else, production of Soviet radar sets was badly disrupted during 1941 and 1942 when the Heer over ran the western Soviet Union. Hence the importance of Lend-Lease supplied radar equipment.
     
  18. parsifal

    parsifal Well-Known Member

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    Juha thanks for that that is very useful in increasing my understanding of this subject. To summarise, then, what seems to be the case so far is that the russians received at least 370 various radars from US sources, up to the end of the war. They produced 607 RUS-2 radars, and 346 from britiain and canada, up to 31 march 1944. I would also say that most major warships of the soviet fleet had at least on radar system fitted, the exact number remaions undetermined, but but it appears from the Nav weapons site to be at least 135.

    We do not know how many other types of indigenous radars were produced or how many additional commonwealth sets were received after march 1944
     
  19. parsifal

    parsifal Well-Known Member

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    And thanks dave for that link as wll, have read the article, which as you say contains a plethora of information. Have read it, but not summarised it yet
     
  20. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    Thanks again :)
     
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