VF-3 F4F-4s, Midway Escort Mission
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fubar57
General
24 aircraft serving with VF-3 at Midway?
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- #3
IIRC, VF-3 had around 25-27 aircraft in total.
fubar57
General
I found this, for the Yorktown....
from the book "Midway" by Hugh Bicheno - Cassell & Co Pub.
from the book "Midway" by Hugh Bicheno - Cassell & Co Pub.
MIflyer
1st Lieutenant
According to the book "No Higher Honor" Dibb was flying fighter No.23
A stirring quote from that book:
Finally, as Thach looked toward a Zero against which he was maneuvering, he saw a glint from the sun out of the corner of his eye. It was the Yorktown Dauntlesses starting their dives on the Soryu, eight miles away.
"It looked like a beautiful waterfall, sliver waterfall, those dive bombers coming down." he recalled. A short time later the Zeros slacked off, and Thach looked around at the sea for the frist time. Three carriers, the Akagi, Kaga, and Soryu were in flames
A stirring quote from that book:
Finally, as Thach looked toward a Zero against which he was maneuvering, he saw a glint from the sun out of the corner of his eye. It was the Yorktown Dauntlesses starting their dives on the Soryu, eight miles away.
"It looked like a beautiful waterfall, sliver waterfall, those dive bombers coming down." he recalled. A short time later the Zeros slacked off, and Thach looked around at the sea for the frist time. Three carriers, the Akagi, Kaga, and Soryu were in flames
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- #6
It has been reported everywhere that Thach was flying #23 for the escort mission, then jumped in #1 for the CAP in Yorktown's defense.
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- #7
Well just found this via the NNAM. Looks like Thach flew the same aircraft on both missions that fateful June day. Now this throws everything on its head. 5171 was #1. So then Dibb was flying #23 and most published works of recent are incorrect. I'll take Thach's logbook as the most trusted source in this case. Thanks for the help.
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R Leonard
Staff Sergeant
No, no, Thach did not fly his nominally assigned F-1 until the afternoon CAP mission.
Pilot/Plane for the strike escort mission (from actual VF-3 records in my possession):
Thach/F-23
Dibb/F-20
Macomber/F-6
Bassett/F-9
Cheek/F-16
Sheedy/F-24
The only VF-3 pilots who actually flew the planes to which they were assigned were Thach (F-1) and only in the afternoon CAP; Leonard (F-13); Barnes (F-17); and Bass (F-22). Everyone else flew an aircraft assigned to another squadron member.
Pilot/Plane for the strike escort mission (from actual VF-3 records in my possession):
Thach/F-23
Dibb/F-20
Macomber/F-6
Bassett/F-9
Cheek/F-16
Sheedy/F-24
The only VF-3 pilots who actually flew the planes to which they were assigned were Thach (F-1) and only in the afternoon CAP; Leonard (F-13); Barnes (F-17); and Bass (F-22). Everyone else flew an aircraft assigned to another squadron member.
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R Leonard
Staff Sergeant
Because just like everyone else from VF-3 & VF-42 (and, I suppose survivors of VB-3, VB-5 & VT-3) the post Midway log books were built from memory, that is re-constituted. All the original log books went down with the ship, including Thach's.
In reconstituting his, my father, with an assist from other VF-42 survivors was able to reach back to the beginning of May 1942, recording missions/flights in which others participated and a general idea of the time for each. His total hours up to 30 April 1942, 635.3, was already a matter of record from a squadron report submitted on 1 May . . . there was a copy ashore at MCAS Ewa where the rump squadron HQ was located. Anyway, he starts what is clearly labeled a Logbook #2 , on 4 May 1942, but since neither he nor anyone else was sure of BNs there is no entry in that column. The May page includes combat flights during the Battle of the Coral Sea. Last two entries for May, one sans a BN were a F4F-4 familiarization flight (0.8 hours) on 29 June and a 2.2 hour flight in BN 5244 (and here I'll really confuse you), F-26 from NAS Kaneohe to USS Yorktown at sea. June 1942 only shows but seven flights. Three were on the 4th, a total of 6.2 hours all in BN 5244 (F-13); one on the 5th of 3.2 hours also in BN 5244; one on the 6th, 2.3 hours, evidently in a different plane as the BN is not recorded; another 3.2 hour flight on the 9th with no BN recorded; and, lastly in BN 5244 a 2.9 hour flight from Hornet to Ewa. Point being, they recorded what they knew. I'd suggest that Thach had no idea of F-23's BN so sitting there at NAS Kaneohe after returning, he simply used the BN of his surviving mount.
My father was the VF-3/VF-42 XO. In that capacity he declared Thach's mount from the morning strike escort, BN 5093 (F-23) to be too shot up for further flight until totally repaired. Fortunately, aboard, ready to go, fully gassed, unscathed, and up until then unused, was Thach's nominally assigned BN 5171 (F-1); this was the plane Thach flew in the CAP scramble against the B5N attack. If you look a photos Yorktown stopped after the torpedo hit you can clearly see F-23 parked, wings folded near the island. Oh, and all this F-this and F-that, VF-3 used only numeric identifiers, no "F". And to eliminate confusion BN 5244 was originally F-26, but after Don Lovelace was killed in BN 5146, the original F-13, my father, the senior of the VF-42 contingent and next senior in the squadron became XO. Unbeknownst to him, the VF maintenance folks, VF-42 to a man, hearing of the change, struck his plane BN 5244 and his wingman, Johnnie Adams', plane below and painted on new side numbers, 13 and 14. So BN 5244 went from 26 to 13 and BN 4245 went from 27 to 14. That is how they appeared the next morning. There was, indeed, a pecking order of where in the numbering one might appear. Side numbers for XOs were generally as close to the middle of the numbering as possible . . . makes sense when you think about it.
My father did not see Thach again until one day in early October 1944 Thach shows up at ComFAirWest and tells John Crommelin he's stealing his director of VF training, my father, to be his assistant Ops Officer in TF-38, VAdm McCain's staff. Just when Dad was beginning to enjoy flying the Aleutian Zero on a regular basis.
NNAM is the National Museum of Naval Aviation
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- #13
Thanks for all the help and first-hand information Mr. Leonard! I must say - I didn't know that in regards to the logbooks so thanks for filling me in! Thanks to everyone for their assistance on this thread!
MIflyer
1st Lieutenant
Well, we know that Cheek was flying No.16, because he wrecked it on landing and there is a picture of it sitting upside down in the book.
Good Day Gentlemen
Could you help me please to identify VF-3 pilots in the Ford´s Midway 1942 movie?
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/77473
1,8 Bain
2,9 Thach
3,4,9,10 Brassfield
7 Haas
5 ???
6 ???
Could you help me please to identify VF-3 pilots in the Ford´s Midway 1942 movie?
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/77473
1,8 Bain
2,9 Thach
3,4,9,10 Brassfield
7 Haas
5 ???
6 ???
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R Leonard
Staff Sergeant
#5 is Richard G Crommelin. #6 well I'm going to think about that.
R Leonard
Staff Sergeant
First photo, for sure, is Dick Crommelin.
Obviously, with his name below on the photo, your second is also Dick Crommelin, USNA 1938. Here he is a Lieutenant Commander, so the photo is after March 1, 1944, probably as CO of VF-88.
Third photo appears to be Dick Crommelin, here a Lieutenant, so after June 16, 1942. He, and the rest of the VF-42 pilots from the Yorktown's various travels, arrived back in Norfolk on July 4, 1942.
The fourth shot . . . well, that's why I said I'd have to think about it, I'm not entirely certain that's Dick Crommelin. Especially with the photo on the other side of the plane showing credit markings.
They used the same plane for all those post Midway shots. A plain-Jane VF-8 F4F. We know it is a VF-8 F4F because the VF-3 planes aboard Hornet had the VF-3 insignia centered on that odd-shaped access panel below and slightly ahead on the cockpit, and the VF-8 F4Fs sported no squadron insignia. If you look really, really careful, you can see it is the same plane. They slapped on one Japanese flag & everyone with one Japanese plane to their credit had their picture taken. Slap on another, and everyone with 2 credits get's a photo. Slap on a third, and so on. They got to four and it was Crommelin's turn as well as my father's, see photo below. Crommelin's total credits eventually settled out at 3.5, but in 1942, nobody used half-flag credits.
My father and Dick Crommelin were USNA classmates, were in VF-42 together, and shared a cabin on Yorktown (CV-5). Crommelin was killed on July 15, 1945, as a result of a mid-air collision in the course of a raid on Hokkaido. I have some message traffic, also see below, regarding his loss. VF-88's operations officer was Lieutenant John Adams; he had been my father's wingman in VF-42/VF-3, knew my father was on the TF-38 staff working for Jimmie Thach, and made sure they were in the loop on Crommelin's loss.
Bill Leonard, VF-3/42 aboard Hornet after Midway . . . and, no, he's not in the John Ford film.
Here is a shot of Dick Crommelin as CO of VF-88 on Yorktown (CV-10) with three of his pilots. Crommelin on left, no idea who be the other three
Messages (2) regarding Richard Crommelin's loss
Interestingly, Eagleston of VB-85, mentioned in first message, was killed when the SB2C he was flying ran into a mountain that was hiding in the clouds on Hokkaido while pulling out from a dive.. His rear gunner, Rasmussen, survived and wandered about the countryside for about a month, stealing food from farms. Around mid-September he saw a USN PBY land in a small bay without being fired on and he headed in that direction. He turned himself in to the Japanese who quickly took him to the senior US officer. Rasmussen stayed in the Navy and retired a Commander.
Rich
Obviously, with his name below on the photo, your second is also Dick Crommelin, USNA 1938. Here he is a Lieutenant Commander, so the photo is after March 1, 1944, probably as CO of VF-88.
Third photo appears to be Dick Crommelin, here a Lieutenant, so after June 16, 1942. He, and the rest of the VF-42 pilots from the Yorktown's various travels, arrived back in Norfolk on July 4, 1942.
The fourth shot . . . well, that's why I said I'd have to think about it, I'm not entirely certain that's Dick Crommelin. Especially with the photo on the other side of the plane showing credit markings.
They used the same plane for all those post Midway shots. A plain-Jane VF-8 F4F. We know it is a VF-8 F4F because the VF-3 planes aboard Hornet had the VF-3 insignia centered on that odd-shaped access panel below and slightly ahead on the cockpit, and the VF-8 F4Fs sported no squadron insignia. If you look really, really careful, you can see it is the same plane. They slapped on one Japanese flag & everyone with one Japanese plane to their credit had their picture taken. Slap on another, and everyone with 2 credits get's a photo. Slap on a third, and so on. They got to four and it was Crommelin's turn as well as my father's, see photo below. Crommelin's total credits eventually settled out at 3.5, but in 1942, nobody used half-flag credits.
My father and Dick Crommelin were USNA classmates, were in VF-42 together, and shared a cabin on Yorktown (CV-5). Crommelin was killed on July 15, 1945, as a result of a mid-air collision in the course of a raid on Hokkaido. I have some message traffic, also see below, regarding his loss. VF-88's operations officer was Lieutenant John Adams; he had been my father's wingman in VF-42/VF-3, knew my father was on the TF-38 staff working for Jimmie Thach, and made sure they were in the loop on Crommelin's loss.
Bill Leonard, VF-3/42 aboard Hornet after Midway . . . and, no, he's not in the John Ford film.
Here is a shot of Dick Crommelin as CO of VF-88 on Yorktown (CV-10) with three of his pilots. Crommelin on left, no idea who be the other three
Messages (2) regarding Richard Crommelin's loss
Interestingly, Eagleston of VB-85, mentioned in first message, was killed when the SB2C he was flying ran into a mountain that was hiding in the clouds on Hokkaido while pulling out from a dive.. His rear gunner, Rasmussen, survived and wandered about the countryside for about a month, stealing food from farms. Around mid-September he saw a USN PBY land in a small bay without being fired on and he headed in that direction. He turned himself in to the Japanese who quickly took him to the senior US officer. Rasmussen stayed in the Navy and retired a Commander.
Rich
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R Leonard
Staff Sergeant
Taking trusty magnifier in hand and a squadron photo of VF-3/8/42 aboard Hornet, it appears to me that the mystery aviator is Dan Sheedy of VF-3.
Thank You very much again.
Ens. Sheedy has unhappy incident during landing on Hornet.
It really looks like that Your Father and Crommellin are sitting in the same F4F.
There is the nice VF-88 "home movie" on youtube.
There is an interesting F4F on Hornet´s, deck: VF-8 (no Felix) + White number 17. As i saw Hornet´s F4Fs had black numbers during the battle. I suppose they were renumbered after the Battle.
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