WAllied jet aircraft timetable improvement

tomo pauk · Mar 28, 2021

Or - what might be the most expedient ways for the WAllies (ie. UK ad USA) to start producing combat-worthy jet aircraft for use in ww2? Be it fighters, bombers, recon aircraft? The 'task' starts in winter of 1938/39, and it will obviously need better funding for jet engines themselves in order to bear fruit. A jump to swept wings is not required on such an early date, but can be viable for late war.

SaparotRob · Mar 28, 2021

Paging Mr Johnson. Call for Mr. Kelly Johnson. We have a cable from a Mr. Whittle for you.

tomo pauk · Mar 28, 2021

An interesting take on a jet-powered Spitfire, looks far better than the Yak-15 etc. family:
link

SaparotRob · Mar 28, 2021

That is an interesting "what if". Definitely would have been a more attractive craft than the Yak.

Thumpalumpacus · Mar 28, 2021

Not a jet, but would have made enemy jet-fighters earn their money all the same, in that era: Republic XF-12 Rainbow - Wikipedia.

nuuumannn · Mar 28, 2021

A lot has to happen to go from this...

MAM 02

To reach this...

MAM 04

And this...

El Aeroparque 17

Firstly, the war increased and simultaneously decreased impetus to developing jet aircraft. Increased in that the British became aware of German jet experiments in 1940, decreased in that the most capable airframe manufacturers with the most resources were busy fulfilling existing contracts to aid in waging the war. Enter Gloster and Carter, who, having met with Whittle in 1939, at which time was building Hurricanes under licence and whose Gladiator was the most advanced machine the company had in production of its own design, produced this two years later (it still has fabric control surfaces)...

0407 Science Museum E28.39

Perhaps one choking point that does spring to mind is the mess between Whittle, Rolls-Royce and Rover. Whittle had met Hives from RR, who famously said on Whittle's explanation that it was simple, "don't worry, we'll design the simplicity out of it...", and nothing further happened for awhile because of miscommunication, which led to Whittle going to Rover to build his engines, which was not great because Rover was not the best fit... This did cause delay, not to mention the RAF not being entirely enthused about the idea until word got round the Germans were doing it too.

nuuumannn · Mar 28, 2021

SaparotRob said:
Paging Mr Johnson. Call for Mr. Kelly Johnson. We have a cable from a Mr. Whittle for you.

This kind'a sort'a happened, only it was Mr Bell who got the contract, again because the other manufacturers were busy building warplanes and stuff. Mr Johnson got help from Mr Halford, whose Goblin, which was quite similar to Whittle's W.1 was built by de Havilland, who was simultaneously working on his own jet, the Vampire.

Shortround6 · Mar 28, 2021

nuuumannn said:
at which time was building Hurricanes under licence and whose Gladiator was the most advanced machine the company had in production of its own design,

True as far as it goes but Gloster had built several prototypes much more advanced than the Gladiator.

Which did give the design team experience.

nuuumannn · Mar 28, 2021

Shortround6 said:
True as far as it goes but Gloster had built several prototypes much more advanced than the Gladiator.
View attachment 617670
Which did give the design team experience.

I did say "in production", but yes, if you wanna be pedantic... Gloster got the job of building the E.28/39 because it wasn't as busy as bigger companies, same with Bell in the USA.

Shortround6 · Mar 28, 2021

tomo pauk said:
Or - what might be the most expedient ways for the WAllies (ie. UK ad USA) to start producing combat-worthy jet aircraft for use in ww2

Step 1. Build a combat-worthy jet engine.

nuuumannn · Mar 28, 2021

Shortround6 said:
Step 1. Build a combat-worthy jet engine.

How d'you know what one of these is if no one's ever done it before? Gotta start with step one point oh. Build a jet engine. Gloster didn't go straight from Whittle's engine to the Meteor, there was the E.28/39 first...

Shortround6 · Mar 28, 2021

From wiki;
Following the completion of these ground tests, the aircraft was fitted with a flightworthy engine rated for 10 hours use, and then transferred to Cranwell which had a long runway.[18] On 15 May 1941, Gloster's Chief Test Pilot, Flight Lieutenant Gerry Sayer flew the aircraft under jet power for the first time from RAF Cranwell, near Sleaford in Lincolnshire, in a flight lasting 17 minutes.

The saga of the E.28/39 was one of continually improving engines (or running the engine/s at increasing RPM/power).

Lots of people knew jet engines were coming, they didn't know exactly when or what power or what weight or........................

even in 1948 the US was having sever difficulties with some of their engines. Like the axial flow GE J-47 as used in the F-86, they did get things fixed pretty quick but in the late 40s the version used in the B-45 bomber
"The new J47 engines had serious maintenance problems and had to be inspected after only 7 1/2 hours in the air and could be flown only 7 1/2 hours more before requiring a complete overhaul."

and "The first XB-48 made its maiden flight on June 22, 1947. It took off from Martin's company airfield at Baltimore and landed at the Patuxent Naval Air Station some 80 miles away. It was powered by six TG-180-B1 (J35-GE-7) engines. Development and testing of the XB-48 was delayed by engine difficulties. The first XB-48 went through no less than 14 engines during its first 44 flights. "

The Centrifugal engines were better but reliability was not great in 1945.

It doesn't matter what kind of airframe you design/build in 1942/43 for use in 1944 if the engines cannot be relied on.

nuuumannn · Mar 28, 2021

Shortround6 said:
The Centrifugal engines were better but reliability was not great in 1945.

I think you've just gone ahead and proven my point for me. After all that work the engines were still not reliable by the end of the war. New technology takes time and experience. There are no shortcuts. Combat experience is learned through combat.

wlewisiii · Mar 28, 2021

1939 fund development of the Lockheed L-133 project.

With two of whittles engines, it could have been a contender.

SaparotRob · Mar 29, 2021

nuuumannn said:
This kind'a sort'a happened, only it was Mr Bell who got the contract, again because the other manufacturers were busy building warplanes and stuff. Mr Johnson got help from Mr Halford, whose Goblin, which was quite similar to Whittle's W.1 was built by de Havilland, who was simultaneously working on his own jet, the Vampire.

I agree. That's what happened. The thread, however, is improving the W Allied Jet timetable. I figured on just skipping a bunch of lesser players and get right to it.
The Forum has been very educational for me. In fact I was completely unaware of Mr. Halford. It's seems like a trip to Wikipedia is called for. I think it was GrauGeist who posted some info on the engine that was planned for the L-133(?) in another thread about the P-59. I thought that engine was never actually built.

Shortround6 · Mar 29, 2021

It never actually ran as designed? How much was built (like the compressor section) and tested is around somewhere.

Each engine was supposed provide over 5,000lb of thrust, a level not reached by anybody during war (in a design that was actually running) and the proposed weight for this power was (power to weight ratio) was not reached for years after the war.

During WW II it was a rat hole.

see: Lockheed J37 - Wikipedia

The design was constantly shifting but was way too complicated for the time, in fact no jet engine ever built (successfully) used as many stages/sections/parts?

fastmongrel · Mar 29, 2021

Fire up the Time Machine and go back to 1928. Give Whittle some money and access to a good engineering company. Make sure Whittle employs a young Adrian Lombard and let them build jet engines. By 1939 a decent working prototype can be air tested in a Wellington or similar.

wlewisiii · Mar 29, 2021

Shortround6 said:
It never actually ran as designed? How much was built (like the compressor section) and tested is around somewhere.

Each engine was supposed provide over 5,000lb of thrust, a level not reached by anybody during war (in a design that was actually running) and the proposed weight for this power was (power to weight ratio) was not reached for years after the war.

During WW II it was a rat hole.

see: Lockheed J37 - Wikipedia

The design was constantly shifting but was way too complicated for the time, in fact no jet engine ever built (successfully) used as many stages/sections/parts?

Yep. That's why I think that 2 of the English engines would have been needed. That said, had they continued to fund development of the aerodynamics, they'd have reaped serious rewards with the engines that would become available.

GrauGeist · Mar 29, 2021

Bell's P-59A would have been a better performer *if* they were given any details about the engines when it was in the design stage.
There is a point of "too much secrecy"...

tomo pauk · Mar 29, 2021

GrauGeist said:
Bell's P-59A would have been a better performer *if* they were given any details about the engines when it was in the design stage.
There is a point of "too much secrecy"...

Seems to me that problem with P-59 was on the side of aerodynamics, rather than on the side of engines.

WAllied jet aircraft timetable improvement

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