Was Operation Pedestal a greater Axis air attack than any faced by the USN in 1942?

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That's fair about the Ki-61, but I would say the small numbers of Ki-44 compares pretty well to other aircraft like the Re-2001 (which is an aircraft I like a lot, and forgot to include in the list, but RCAFson kept mentioning), of which they only made 237 ever and only had maybe a dozen or two in combat units in 1942 IIRC

Shortround6 said:
I kind of like the classification of the Macchi MC. 200 as obsolescent when it was so close in speed and climb to the Ki-43 that which plane had fresh spark plugs may have determined the winner.
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That is ABSOLUTELY hilarious! This is one of the best things you ever posted.

I would LOVE to do a comparison of the combat histories of the MC.200 vs. the Ki-43. Both contended with many of the exact same types of aircraft (like say, Hurricanes) flown by nearly identical aircrews. The outcomes of combat were wildly different. On paper perhaps they look similar, in reality there is a yawning gap between the amount of harm they did to the Allied cause and specifically most Allied aircraft they encountered.

I think I will start a new thread on this one for sure. It definitely deserves a comparison. I just never thought I would find someone with any credibility (which you do have!) who would make this claim. I don't know the precise breakdown in victories per aircraft but I'm sure we can figure it out and I'd love to know the exact number.


Still, in my opinion, Ki-43-I is VASTLY more dangerous than any mark of MC.200. I would love to be proven wrong though. I'll definitely start the other thread.
 
Shortround6 said:
I kind of like the classification of the Macchi MC. 200 as obsolescent
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Anyway, the reason I included the Macchi MC. 200 as 'obsolescent' (distinct from 'obsolete') here is that in 1942 it was being phased out in favor of the far, far better MC.200; whereas the Ki-43 was definitely not being phased out in 1942, very much to the contrary, even though there were some other more modern fighter types becomming available for the JAAF.
 

So in looking at these numbers, the obvious problem that the Germans and Italians have vs. the Japanese, is that the German + Italian fighters have very short range. The Japanese fighters have around two to three times the range of their Axis allies. That means Japanese strike aircraft can almost always fly with an escort. Italian and German strike aircraft by contrast must often fight on their own if they want to hit a British fleet that is not right near their bases. This continued to be a big problem right through the war.

Most Japanese fighters lacked armor or self sealing tanks in 1942 (this would start to change in 1943-44) but if you look at day to day combat losses, it does not really add up to a substantial increase in losses of Japanese fighters. Their enhanced maneuverability seems to compensate somewhat, and they don't always blow up or catch fire every time they are hit the way were kind of lead to believe by 20th Century accounts. The superior armor, SS tanks, and pilot rescue infrastructure of the Allies together seem to make much more of a difference over time via attrition. This would start telling by 1943 but not so much in 1942.

Japanese also have an advantage in recon. The Ki-46 is very hard to catch and very fast. Somewhat analogous to a Mosquito though only in the recon role. Japanese flying boats are faster and better armed than Italian ones (and this goes for Axis in general with the exception of 1 or 2 BV 222 etc.) The main Japanese float plane fighter (A6M-2N) is good enough to pose a serious threat to all Allied fighters in 1942, barring maybe the P-38. Neither the Germans nor Italians have anything like that.

The best German recon is probably the high flying Ju 86R (available in very small numbers) followed by He 111 and SM.79. But all three were getting shot down by this time.

The Allies, in comparison to the Germans and Italians, have a number of fast planes they can use for day-time Maritime recon - Maryland, Beaufighter, Baltimore. Ultra long range Wellingtons and Liberators can do recon and ASW further out. All this makes it extra perilous for the Axis to try to deploy any of their surface vessels and somewhat limits the efficacy of their (quite good) submarines.

The other big problem for the Germans is that their best bomber by far, the Ju 87, also has a very short range especially when carrying a largish bomb load. That means all long-range strikes against the Convoys are going to be by unescorted Ju 88, He 111, SM.79, SM.84, CANT 1007 and so on. Of these, both Ju 88 and SM.79 are fairly dangerous to Allied ships, but both are vulnerable against even second tier fighters. The others are extremely vulnerable and got slaughtered when they tangled with Allied fighters.
 
So let's have a look at the actual TO&E at the time of Pedestal, in broad strokes.

After we digest this (assuming we can) we can get down into details.

According to Robert Ehlers' "The Mediterranean Air War", (not to be confused with Shores also quite useful book series of the same name) as well as some Osprey books and a couple of other sources, the following aircraft were available:

Royal Navy assets:
3 Carriers (4 if you also include the simultaneous Operation Bellows)
2 Battleships
3 Cruisers with heavy AAA and ASV (7 counting Bellows)
12 Destroyers (32 counting Bellows)
escorting 14 merchant ships.

FAA Air Assets:
72 Fighters (Sea Hurricanes, Fulmars and Martlets, as RCAFson already noted). Wikipedia says 74 fighters.
28 Albacores.

RAF Malta Assets
Originally 80 fighters, mostly Spitfire V, serviceable on Malta (end of July)
Augmented to 100 Spitfires and 36 Beaufighters in early August.
When HMS Furious was sunk on 11 August, 37 more Spitfires flew to Malta.
30 Wellington bombers (flying mostly ASW or at night)
30 Beaufort torpedo bombers
3 FAA Swordfish or Albacores (couldn't figure this out precisely)
6 PRU Recon Spitfires
5 Wellington recon
5 Baltimore recon
2 Liberators (recon / ASW)

This ads up to 209 single engined fighters (including 137 Spitfires!), 37 quite lethal, long ranged Beaufighters, and navy 31 dive / torpedo bombers, 60 twin engined bombers, and 18 recon / ASW. Total 246 fighters in Malta or on the carriers, 355 aircraft total. Not counting what was flying from the North African mainland.
The Spitfires had limited range and available fuel, but did fight in defense of the convoy and did shoot down Axis aircraft.

RAF Western Desert
And coastal command etc. Ehlers doesn't mention these but there were Beaufighters and Kittyhawks within range of Malta, I need to double check the other (Shores) MAW to see if they played any role. There were also many British recon planes available from across North Africa - Wellingtons, Marylands, Baltimores etc. plus Sunderlands

Axis Naval assets
21 U-boats and Submarines
28 E-boats or torpedo boats
12 destroyers
3 heavy cruisers

Axis Air Assets
600 Aircraft of all types in Theater. This includes a wide range from CR 42s and CANT 1007s and 506 (seaplanes) and other even more archaic types, to the much more modern BF 109F, MC 202, Ju 88 and Ju87D.

Wikipedia claims 304 fighters, 285 bombers, for 589 total, plus maybe a dozen miscellaneous recon etc.

Not all of these aircraft actually made any air strikes or flew any sorties during the battle. We'll break that down though.
 

The RN and FAA had no choice but to close within range of Axis airfield when escorting convoys to Malta. The Luftwaffe used high altitude JU88s as their primary recon aircraft, and they were almost untouchable by any Allied fighter if they stayed at high altitude. The pressurized recon variant of the JU86 was typically used over Egypt and would fly at ~40K ft. Only a few specially lightened Spitfires and Hurricanes had any hope of catching one, prior to the pressurized cockpit variants of the Spitfire.

Most IJNAF carrier TF recon was done by biplane or monoplane floatplanes and the Yorktown was found by an IJN Aichi E13A "Jake" and later TF16 by a Nakajima E8N2 'Dave'. At Midway the IJNAF had a prototype D4Y1 which was used to keep tabs on Yorktown for a short time.

By and large IJAAF aircraft were a non-factor in the South Pacific and were only rarely encountered by USN carrier TFs.

The JU87-R had very good range and could carry 250kg or 500kg bombs and drop tanks. JU-87Rs sank HMS Southampton at ~300nm from their base in Jan 1941. Other Stuka variants could employ drop tanks to increase their range as could Me109s and Me110s.
 
Midway
by contrast had:

233 USN carrier based planes
127 land based planes (Army and USMC)
=360 aircraft in total

vs

248 IJN carrier based + 28 float planes or flying boats,
= 276 aircraft in total

This looks like an easier time for the Allies, except that the Allies had only 107 modern fighters (86 F4F Wildcats, counting 6 land based F4F-3A, and 21 obsolescent F2A buffalo), compared to the British 206 fighters at Pedastal (137 excellent Spitfires + 72 Sea Hurricanes, Fulmars and Martlets) whereas all of the Japanese fighters were excellent A6M types. Axis aircraft during Pedestal are a mix.

The air forces at Midway break down as follows:

Japanese
93 x A6M (very good)
70 x D3A (very good)
81 x B5N (good, though vulnerable)
2 x D4Y (fast recon)
5 x E13 (seaplane recon)
10 x E8N (seaplane recon)
1 x E11A (seaplane recon)

I think also some H6 flying boats but not certain.

American (Carrier based)
79 x F4F-4 Wildcat (good)
109 x SBD-3 Dauntless (very good)
44 x TBD-1 Devastator (obsolete)

American (Midway Island)
7 x F4F-3A Wildcat (Good, probably better than F4F-4 in some respects)
21 x Brewster F2A (obsolescent)
19 x SBD-2 Dauntless (early version of SBD, vulnerable)
17 x SB2U-3 Vindicator
17 x B-17 (early version)
31 x PBY-5 Catalina (recon flying boat)
4 x B-26 Marauder (good torpedo bomber)
6 x TBF-1 Avenger (good torpedo bomber)

Of this mix, we know that the Devastator torpedo bomber was obsolete. Midway air force being kind of similar to the Axis during Pedestal, many were antiques or weird experiments that didn't work out. I don't think any of the Midway based bombers scored any hits and the Buffaloes got wrecked by the Zeros. For the most part in terms of fighters it was 79 Wildcats vs. 93 Zeros. Both the D3A and the SBD were quite deadly. The Japanese B5s were a bit more vulnerable but they were definitely also ship sinkers, unlike the pretty much useless TBD.

Now what remains is to break down the Axis fighters and strike aircraft at Pedestal, and then look at each sortie in detail.
 

Actually both Kittyhawks and Spitfire Vs shot down recon Ju 88s routinely. A lightened high altitude Spitfire pretty much ended the career of the Ju 86R, which was a problem for a little while.


Carrier recon was by definition from carrier planes, but they also coordinated with flying boats and other seaplanes. The Mavis was active during Coral Sea, Midway and

RCAFson said:
By and large IJAAF aircraft were a non-factor in the South Pacific and were only rarely encountered by USN carrier TFs.
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Actually that is not true around New Guinea where quite a bit of fighting took place including some naval battles and air-sea actions. The JAAF did join the battle a bit later in the year (after Coral Sea which was the biggest air-naval battle in that area in 1942).

RCAFson said:
The JU87-R had very good range and could carry 250kg or 500kg bombs and drop tanks. JU-87Rs sank HMS Southampton at ~300nm from their base in Jan 1941. Other Stuka variants could employ drop tanks to increase their range as could Me109s and Me110s.
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Ju 87, or Bf 109 or 110 carying drop tanks couldn't also carry a lot of bombs at the same time . I included range figures for Bf 109 and 110 with drop tanks. It still wasn't very far. Bf 109 is the one that mattered anyway because a Sea Hurricane or Martlet could handle a Bf 110.
 
Bf 109 and Bf 110 were also used as fighter bombers, both pretty effective in the role. Bf 109E was mainly being used as a "Jabo" i.e. fighter bomber by the time of Pedestal. I listed it as 'obsolescent' for this reason, even though by world standards a Bf 109E-7 was still pretty good in 1942.
 
FAA aircraft shot down recon JU88s as well, but as I stated only when they ventured to lower altitudes.

I don't think there were any IJN 'Mavis' aircraft involved in the Midway battle.

USN carrier involvement with IJAAF aircraft was very limited in 1942.

The JU87 could carry drop tanks and a 250KG bomb to maximum range or 500kg bomb with a slightly reduced range, which is still twice the payload of a Val. The Me110 could carry drop tanks and a 250KG bomb.
 
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RCAFson said:
FAA aircraft shot down recon JU88s as well, but as I stated only when they ventured to lower altitudes.
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I dont think Spit V had any trouble catching them, Kittyhawks seemed to get them a lot as well, though I don't know what alt. You can only see so much from 35,000 ft with ww2 cameras.
RCAFson said:
I don't think there were any IJN 'Mavis' aircraft involved in the Midway battle.
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We are talking "USN in 1942" not just Midway, but I think H6 or H8 were there, will find out soon.
Still outranged by Japanese strike aircraft and fighters
 
IJN flying boats were supposed to take part at Midway, but, thanks to PURPLE, a USN seaplane tender was on station at French Frigate Schoals to block the rendezvous with the Japanese refueling submarine.
 
Ok I don't see any H6 at Midway but they were at Coral Sea and also active over the Solomons, based in the Marshal Islands and Rabaul. H8k also in the Solmons in 1943.

A6M2-N also in the Solomons, based at Shortland island from 1942.
 
The Difference is that while the RE. Falco II went into combat over Malta in May of 1942 in admittedly small numbers, the 'production' Ki-44s were in Japan and were not used on combat operations. Yes there were a group Ki-44-Is that saw action in China/Malaya but that was 9/11 preproduction aircraft on combat user trials. Accounts say 9 with 2 prototypes brought up to the newer standard. No planes were produced in Sept through Dec while the "trials" were carried out and then a batch of 40 aircraft were ordered while work went forward on the Ki-44 II with the new 2 speed engine. After the Doolittle raid the Ki-44 unit was called back to Japan for home defense and there it and the the new units stayed for most of 1942. the last Ki-44 I left the production line in Oct 1942.
This is one of the aspects of the Pacific war that differs from Europe. It often took weeks (or months for the British and Americans) to deploy new types of aircraft (or other equipment) into combat areas. In Europe they still needed to train crews on new types but it was only one or two tanks of fuel to get a new airplane (or new unit) from the factory or training area to combat zone. The Ki-44 II was used in China in one Sentai and then two Sentai were converted during 1943 to defend the oil refineries in Sumatra. They just were not a factor in 1942.
Wild_Bill_Kelso said:
Still, in my opinion, Ki-43-I is VASTLY more dangerous than any mark of MC.200. I would love to be proven wrong though. I'll definitely start the other thread.
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It might be, it is just that the speed and climb to 5,000 meters were so close. Roll rate and turning circle and other things can affect combat, however nobody has ever claimed the MC. 200 was not maneuverable.
And for all but the last month or so of 1942 the Ki-43 I was the version being used with just a few Ki-43 IIs trickling in.

And now we are also having to consider the opposition. Like pilot quality/training/experience. The MC. 200 was close to the Hurricane I in performance and is supposed to have been able to able to out maneuver, out climb and out climb the Hurricane although perhaps by not as much as the Ki 43?
Both planes used the ammo in the guns, you could actually fire the Italian ammo in the Japanese guns. Both guns did not synchronize well. But the Italian aircraft carried 370rpg instead of 250rpg.

Edit. They built over 5 times as many Ki-43s as they did MC.200s so just in sheer numbers the MC. 200 wasn't going to have as much impact. Because of the shortage of engines for the MC. 202s production of the MC. 200 continued for a while simultaneously so it's span of time in combat is also from the summer of 1940 through the summer/fall of 1943. A long time to spread 1150 aircraft over.
 
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Both Bismarck Sea and the night sea battles around the 'Canal were occasioned by, if not always fought over, the destruction of resupply convoys. Bismarck seems the closest parallel to Pedestal in terms of mission and context (land air attacking naval convoy) on both sides, to me.
 
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So it looks like during Pedestal, there were actually 39 x Bf 109 and 27 x MC 202 serviceable, and 182 modern bombers (Ju 88 and Ju 87). Admittedly that is a fairly large number of Axis bombers, mostly Ju 88s.

But everything else was a mix of obsolete types, weird seaplanes recon aircraft. Aside from some semi-plausible G.50, MC.200, and CR.42s, and admittedly fairly dangerous SM.79s, the total includes Z.506, BR.20, Z.501, and S.66. None of those are really even combat planes in 1942, let alone front line.

I think there were also some Re 2001 in Sicily but haven't been able to track those down yet, but no more than 1 squadron IIRC.

So instead of 72 badly outnumbered FAA fighters fending off an astonishing armada of 600 enemy planes, we actually see 245 British fighters (72 navy planes assisted by over 137 Spitfires and 36 Beaufighters) supported by about 100 modern bombers and recon planes, against ~75 front line Axis fighters and 182 modern bombers plus a mish-mash of mostly obsolete types. Some very obsolete. And most of whom I don't even think flew missions during the battle.

As originally presented, Pedestal was 8-1 odds against the FAA fighter pilots, mostly flying Sea Hurricanes. But we (cough) forgot 137 Spitfires. And we implied that there was 600 front line Axis fighters and strike planes.

In actuality in terms of front line fighter strength it looks like more than 3-1 odds in favor of the British, with the additional factor that most of the best Axis fighters would only be able to participate in the fighting at the very end of the convoy's journey when it was just about at Malta.

At Midway by comparison, it was about 1-1 on fighters (with the Japanese having a few more modern types), but the Japanese had 150 front line bombers while the Americans really only had 100 (the SBDs).
 
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