Wasn't the STUKA the best dive bomber to see service in WWII

[Cromwell]

Kind of agree.....the vengeance had great potential as a design, but was not really given the full opportunity to display itself completely. It seems to me that the allies veered aaway from Divebombing as a ground support weapon, in favour of the fighter bomber. The US sort of discarded the A-24 after no apparent problems, though my knowledge of this aircraft is limited. The commonwealth appeared to draw similar conclusions in the ETO and the Pacific. There was nothing inherently wrong with the Vengeance, but time and again it was withdrawn from its intended role. In the case of the RAAF, most of the Vengeance ewuipped units were re-equipped with Liberator bombers.....perhaps it was the simple expedient of range, payload versatility in the case of the RAAF

Have you noticed how one man's meat is another man's poison when it comes to planes from WW2 ?

For example, the Airacobra and Kingcobra, discarded by the Yanks - loved by the Ruskies. They even helped to further develop the Kingcobra by sending over an aero-engineer and a test pilot for the Kingcobra !

Or perhaps the Buffalo, complete failure most everywhere else - but very successful when used by the Finns

Well, that is my spin anyhow - comments please welcomed too !

 

[Cromwell]

Crom,

fighters with solid metal behind the cockpit (with the honourable exceptions of the Vampire FB5 and Meteor F8.). It's like WW2 never existed. Why this happened is quite beyond me, unless it was over-confidence in the ability of missiles (or an inability to build blown canopies that could cope with the stresses of high-speed jet-powered flight). And don't get me started on the canopy for the TSR2, an aircraft which (apart from that feature) I truly admire....yes, I know it wasn't a fighter but providing the nav with a couple of little peepholes is hardly helpful).

Yes, we - the Brits - seemed to specialise in Coal-Hole accomodation especially for Navs, Co-Pilots and Bombardiers

Its as if they didn't need to see out or something !

Imagine being a Navigator in a Sea-Vixen or the Photographer in a PR Canberra Nose-cone - brrrrrrr shudder quake - its Bonkers mate !

 

[Cromwell]

Ju 87 D and following defensive armament is identical to that of the contemporary Dauntless. As a "dogfighter" it may be inferior due to the fixed undercarriage, but then, even with the famous exceptions mentioned, the SBD was also outclassed in that regard by any Japanese fighter. Btw Ju 87s too scored some air-to-air kills (with the fixed cannons) on the eastern front.

EDIT: granted the SBD rear gunner had a very good field of fire.

When you say Fixed Cannons do you mean Bordkanone BK 37 ?

I know that Hans-Ulrich Rudel was a great exponent of this feature - he also shot down 9 planes in a JU87 (Soviet ones I think)

BTW I think Later versions of the JUu87 had much better Rear Gunner positions with Twin guns and high rates of fire - actually 7.92mm MG 81Z twin machine guns

 

[Markus]

I have my doubts about that statement.

German dive bombers were invaluable for destroying bunkers and artillery emplacements at long range. Without Ju-87 and Ju-88 dive bombers the Wehrmacht would need to build a lot more 17cm Kanone18 long range artillery pieces plus their tracked prime movers.

Depends, IMO fighter-bombers could have taken care of artillery just as well and at least at Sedan the Stukas did not destroy a single bunker. Regarding attacks on ships; level bombers are useless, torpedo bombers need to close in to less than 1,000 yards flying a straight course at sea level at a speed of 150 mph. A bit dangerous, isn´t it? If the ship is smaller than a BB or CV no torpedo bombers are needed, if it is a capital ship the dive bombers can take out some of the triple-A to pave the way for the torpedo bombers.

 

[davebender]

Regarding attacks on ships; level bombers are useless

Not if you employ proper tactics.

The Luftwaffe preferred the "Swedish Turnip Method" which involved skip bombing from a height of 45 meters. That's level bombing, Germany style.

 

[Cromwell]

Not if you employ proper tactics.

The Luftwaffe preferred the "Swedish Turnip Method" which involved skip bombing from a height of 45 meters. That's level bombing, Germany style.

I think that is actually a variation of Bounce-Bombing by Germans with a Swedish Turnipy-flavour.

Nelson would be proud

 

[Markus]

Not if you employ proper tactics.

The Luftwaffe preferred the "Swedish Turnip Method" which involved skip bombing from a height of 45 meters. That's level bombing, Germany style.

Agreed, skip-bombing is perfect once you can do it. The Allies started skip bombing in 1943. When did the LW start, after 1941 I guess?

 

[davebender]

Supposedly during the Spanish Civil War.

 

[Markus]

Supposedly during the Spanish Civil War.

They must have forgotten about it as the record of level bombers like the He111 and the Do17 was most unimpressive in Norway, Dunkirk and Greece.

 

[davebender]

Luftwaffe skip bombing - Google Search

From an altitude of only 15m Oberleutnant Siegward Fiebig swept across the adjoining airfield, machine-gunning as he went and "skip-bombing" his four 250kg bombs off the wet grass and into the sheet metal shop and the work's technical school.

 

[Cromwell]

Luftwaffe skip bombing - Google Search

BTW 'Bender' is a German name is it not ?

I had relatives who came to London at the turn of the C20 called Bender !

 

[davebender]

My grandparents moved from Elsaß to the U.S. during 1912 to escape the French invasion which they considered inevitable.

 

[parsifal]

German naval air theory in the years 1935-1939 supported the idea of an independent naval air arm with floatplanes, flying boats, and naval fighter planes cooperating directly with the Navy. However, the theory was rarely applied. Initially, land-based attacks by planes also proved ineffective. In late October 1936 Franco urged the Condor Legion to bomb Republican naval and supply ports. It did so with disappointing results. Over a year later in the Mediterranean, another attempt was made at maritime bombing to interdict Soviet shipping. This time the Condor Legion enjoyed greater success, its seaplanes raiding shipping at sea by day and in harbor by night. On Franco's orders, the maritime bombing attacks escalated into a full-scale offensive. As Willard C. Frank notes, "Raids became continuous, severely reduced the supplies needed to maintain the [Republican] civilian population, and did serve to undercut morale." By the end of the war in 1939. Italian and German aircraft had sunk 115 Republican and 51 foreign merchant ships, a total equal to nearly 75 percent of all enemy ships destroyed by those two countries during the entire war. Another 225 bombing sorties during this period damaged or delayed many Republican cargoes. choking off a source of the besieged population's food, clothing, fuel and medical supplies and producing increased misery and despair.

Dive bombers were intended as the basic instrument of enemy shipping's destruction. However, the only plane available at that time, the Ju87, originally had only a one-hundred mile operational radius, a factor which limited flight time. Legion pilots did ascertain that torpedo attacks and dive bombing were very promising. But the Luftwaffe developed neither a long-range dive bomber nor a torpedo bomber. The He59 and He115 floatplanes were intended to be torpedo bombers, but they never carried out an operation. The Germans were aware of their limitations, but because of their indifferent attitude, they failed to exploit the equipment at hand. The Air Staff believed that the larger German warships received adequate service from their Arado and Heinkel floatplanes. This helps to account for the nearsighted decision not to complete the German aircraft carrier, the Graf Zeppelin. In any case, the High Command in 1937-39 believed that war with Great Britain could be avoided, and men like Ernst Udet did not believe that Germany would wage war against a maritime power like Great Britain. As an result of the maritime air war during the Spanish War, the Germans falsely deduced that ships underway did not need to fear aerial attack. Consequently, naval officers procrastinated dangerously on improvements for shipboard anti-aircraft defenses, and the air force failed to develop more effective strike methods. Overall, the Luftwaffe concluded that a separate naval air arm or indeed specialist anti-shipping units, were unneccessaary, By 1940, it had begun to be reabsorb into air force land-based squadrons of its fledgling naavl air arm. Specialist anti-shipping units were not really organized and deployed until after the outbreak of the war.

As stated above, the Luftwaffe did not have a specialised anti-shipping unit at the beginning of the war . Just prior to Norway they began to train specialist units, which later was organised into FliegerKorps X.

The preferred method of attack remained divebombing throughout 1940 and 1941. Even aircraft like He 111s and Ju 88s tended to use shallow dives as a means of delivery, which I suspect is the reference to glide bombing often referred to in many texts.

However the German level bombers were generally unsuccessful against warships, though against slower and less manouverable merchant shipping they enjoyed some success. Up to May 1940, about 90000 tons of shipping was lost to air attacks....not that impressive, but worth noting.

With level bombing proving to be inneffective, the Germans were dismayed to observe the high loss rates for the Divebomber units attached to FK X. Over Norwegian waters the RN AA cruisers had exposed the vulnerability of Divebombers to even light flak, and this continued throughout the war. One of the outcomes from this was the equipping of the Me110 units of FK X asa fighter bombers. In this role the Me 110 units enjoyed considereable success in the Med

 

[Kurfürst]

Good summary post, but I have few comments, if I may...

But the Luftwaffe developed neither a long-range dive bomber nor a torpedo bomber.

And the Ju 88, which served as both...? It wasn't dubbed the 'Big Stuka' for no reason.. And practically all the German twins and even the He 177 was employed as torpedo bombers.

The He59 and He115 floatplanes were intended to be torpedo bombers, but they never carried out an operation. The Germans were aware of their limitations, but because of their indifferent attitude, they failed to exploit the equipment at hand.

I am afraid you are wrong in this, the Germans could and did operate these floatplanes in the torpedo bomber role early the war with some success. The limitations of the He 59 were clearly seen indeed, and it was replaced in the role by the He 115, and later, the Ju 88 and He 111.

 

[davebender]

The Me-210C and Me-410A dive bombers entered service during early 1943 yet rarely served in that role. Perhaps after 4+ years of combat experience with dive bombers (including Spanish Civil War) the Luftwaffe had already decided that precision low level bombing was superior for most missions.

 

[parsifal]

And the Ju 88, which served as both...? It wasn't dubbed the 'Big Stuka' for no reason.. And practically all the German twins and even the He 177 was employed as torpedo bombers.

My understanding is that the Ju-88 was rarely used in the true divebombing configuration. To qualify as such, it would need to have dive angles greater than about 70 degrees. Was it capable and was it used to deliver attacks at these dive angles.

Dives below 70 degrees are not generally considered true divebombing, though they are still quite accurate as a means of delivery

Regarding the use of German Twin engined aircraft as Torpedo Bombers, you are right, but none were able to undertake torpedo bombing at the beginning of the war. That cam e later, approximately October 1941 in fact is when the first marks able to carry torpedoes were delivered.

I am afraid you are wrong in this, the Germans could and did operate these floatplanes in the torpedo bomber role early the war with some success. The limitations of the He 59 were clearly seen indeed, and it was replaced in the role by the He 115, and later, the Ju 88 and He 111.

Not until later oin the war. The first torpedo attacks were undertaken approximately October 1941, at first using Italian 17.7 inch torpedoes. Later the Germans developed and improved this aerial topredo. It is possible that He 115s and He59s were equipped to launch torpedoes, but I am unaware of even a single attack ever being made by these aircraft before 1941

 

[riacrato]

When you say Fixed Cannons do you mean Bordkanone BK 37 ?

No, I meant the 2 x MG 151 that replaced the 2 x MG 17 on the D-4 and D-5 variants.

 

[Cromwell]

No, I meant the 2 x MG 151 that replaced the 2 x MG 17 on the D-4 and D-5 variants.

Really ? Wow you learn something all the time with this forum - I never realised they put 15/20mm Cannon IN the wings of the Stuka - I always thought they were strapped on as pods where the outer bombs used to reside, sort of.


From Wikipedia :-


The MG 151 (MG 151/15) was a 15 mm autocannon produced by Waffenfabrik Mauser starting in 1940. It was in 1941 developed into the 20 mm MG 151/20 cannon which was widely used on many types of German Luftwaffe fighters, fighter bombers, night fighters, ground attack and even bombers as part of or as their main armament during World War II.

 

[Trebor]

Naw sod that, the WRIGHT FLYER with a really fat man piloting it could do better

no way, scratch THAT Da Vinci's flying machine

 

[Cromwell]

no way, scratch THAT Da Vinci's flying machine

You can't beat the ML Utility Plane Mk1 - later used as the basis for bouncy castles

It really was the Ultimate (Pants)