What air victory was more important?

Hollywood · Apr 6, 2008

I agree with the above evaluations for the most part........

B.O.B. #1
Midway #2 To start the Japs on a downhill slide and
Battle of Philippean Sea "Mariannas Turkey Shoot" #3 to push
them past the point of no return.....
Guadalcanal was an air/sea nightmare for Japan. They didn't call
it "The Island of Death" for nothing.......

drgondog · Apr 6, 2008

pbfoot said:
IMHO think Malta should be 2nd without Malta the Med would have been a far costlier affair , suppling the Africa Corps would have been far easier with the possibility of losing the Suez Canal as an end result

That is a good point..actually, each of the critical battles need to be reviewed sequentially in the context of what was important at the time

If I rank my 'most important' battels sequentially by time and magnitude of the stakes I think I would start with BoB - first time LW failed to achieve its mission, then Battle of Atlantic and North Africa (including Malta) to protect supply and logistics, then Stalingrad and Midway as the 'high tide reversal' of the Axis, to the Battle of Germany to cripple the LW ability to create havoc for the Invasion- then Normandy campaign and associated drive by USSR in the east to invade Axis territory..then the huge naval and ground battles around the Phillipines to the taking of Mariana's for B-29 bases.

At this time the fate of Japan and Germany is sealed

parsifal · Apr 10, 2008

I think the Black week in 1944 needs to be considered. 1600 german fighters in a week (well more or less) should not be scoffed at. Thats more than the entire BoB.

For the poms, one would be hard pressed to go past hamburg...what was it Speer said... something like "three or four more like that and we are done for!"

syscom3 · Apr 10, 2008

The destruction of the skilled IJN carrier pilots (that remained after the Guadalcanal campaign) occured guring the 9 months of air battles over Rabaul and nearby. This was from spring 1943 to Feb 1944

drgondog · Apr 10, 2008

syscom3 said:
The destruction of the skilled IJN carrier pilots (that remained after the Guadalcanal campaign) occured guring the 9 months of air battles over Rabaul and nearby. This was from spring 1943 to Feb 1944

I agree those campaigns important as far as attrition is concerned.

I also feel the loss of four carriers and the many airmen and skilled flight deck personnel in one stroke cut IJN's strategic footprint in half - never to regain initiative in Pacific again.

The Japanese could prioritize pilots and transfer from other fronts as quickly as they chose to do so.. but they couldn't lay four keels and rebuild to point of June 1942 in time to do any good, at their most important strategic point in the war - particularly if they intended to take Hawaii and Australia and dig in.

If the IJN had even split the battle similar to Coral Sea I doubt we could have invaded Guadalcanal for another year. Strictly opinion but I feel the Defeat at Midway and loss of the carriers was far more important to Japan's defeat than any engagement in the war.

syscom3 · Apr 10, 2008

drgondog said:
....... I also feel the loss of four carriers and the many airmen and skilled flight deck personnel in one stroke cut IJN's strategic footprint in half - never to regain initiative in Pacific again.......

If youre referring to Midway, the official IJN records show that the loss of airmen was minimal.

The loss of the skilled mechanics was worse, but tolerable.

I have the figures at home, and will post them if interested.

drgondog · Apr 10, 2008

syscom3 said:
If youre referring to Midway, the official IJN records show that the loss of airmen was minimal.

I'm comfortable with Midway losing far fewer aircraft than many future battles

The loss of the skilled mechanics was worse, but tolerable.

The loss of mechanics is interesting but IJN should have been able to replace those easier than the pilots

I have the figures at home, and will post them if interested.

Syscom - My thesis isn't that Midway was the 'greatest PTO airbattle' - only the Most Important and the worst single relative loss they suffered.

Their war was lost the day the fourth and last carrier went down. I don't believe they ever had a remote chance but who knows how long it would have taken if the losses were reversed and we lost our carrier fleet instead.

syscom3 · Apr 10, 2008

Its a popular misconception that Midway caused the demise of the IJN air force, due to many pilots and crews being killed on the carriers.

This wasnt true.

drgondog · Apr 10, 2008

syscom3 said:
Its a popular misconception that Midway caused the demise of the IJN air force, due to many pilots and crews being killed on the carriers.

This wasnt true.

Syscom - I make no case that Midway was terrible loss in aircrews.

Where do you read any comments from me that Midway caused the demised of the IJN air force?

I am saying and only saying that the loss of four carriers at that stage of the war was crippling to the IJN - period.

They could lost zero pilots, zero a/c, zero air and ground crews and it is still the biggest battle the IJN fought and lost - period. I am saying that they could have had 500 replacement pilots ready to step in and it was still the biggest disaster the IJN ever experienced. I am saying they could lose more carriers later over a period of time - and it doesn't matter. I could be wrong about this opinion but I am not changing the opinion.

They had bigger losses in tonnage, more pilots lost, more KIA - but no battle touched this one.

Repeat - I don't care from an historical perspective that IJN aircraft losses were zero, minimal, average, large or huge - what ever their losses, pilots and crews far easier to replace than the carriers that hammered Pearl Harbor.

You opinions to the contrary are no less informed than mine. Let's agree to disagree.

Soundbreaker Welch? · Apr 11, 2008

It must have been a real sadness to the Japanese when they lost their two Yamato Class Battleships. But by then they were losing the war.

syscom3 · Apr 12, 2008

Soundbreaker Welch? said:
It must have been a real sadness to the Japanese when they lost their two Yamato Class Battleships. But by then they were losing the war.

They then knew how the US felt about their BB's being sunk at Pearl, and the RN with the PoW and Repluse off of Malaya.

parsifal · Apr 12, 2008

Guys

IMHO, the importance of a battle should be judged less on the material losses (very WWI type thinking BTW) and more on the effect on enemy in terms of how he views things.

Both Midway and Guadacanal were important in material terms, but neither battle led to the japanese breaking out the surrender flags.Both battles contributed to that change in mindset, but it is very difficult to determine which had the greater impact in that regard

But battles also affect the other side, in this case the US. IMO Midway was the greater battle in terms of the way it boosted US Morale. Psychologically (and of course materially), the US would not have been able to attempt Guadacanal as soon as they did, except if they had won at Midway.

Morale and Psychology are more important than people think, including the US. Just look at what is happening to US National Morale as a result of Iraq. I think the US is winning, but it cannot see it.

syscom3 · Apr 12, 2008

Guadalcanal had a bigger impact on the Pacific War than Midway.

Hunter368 · Apr 12, 2008

Of course this is all just opinions.......but I believe Midway was more important.

parsifal · Apr 12, 2008

well thanks for the convincing and thoughtful counterarguments fellas. "I said it, so it must be true!"

Come on you can do better than that, surely

drgondog · Apr 12, 2008

syscom3 said:
Guadalcanal had a bigger impact on the Pacific War than Midway.

You suppose the Japanese lose Guadalcanal (or New Guinea) before 1944 if they win Midway?

drgondog · Apr 12, 2008

parsifal said:
Guys

IMHO, the importance of a battle should be judged less on the material losses (very WWI type thinking BTW) and more on the effect on enemy in terms of how he views things.

Both Midway and Guadacanal were important in material terms, but neither battle led to the japanese breaking out the surrender flags.Both battles contributed to that change in mindset, but it is very difficult to determine which had the greater impact in that regard

But battles also affect the other side, in this case the US. IMO Midway was the greater battle in terms of the way it boosted US Morale. Psychologically (and of course materially), the US would not have been able to attempt Guadacanal as soon as they did, except if they had won at Midway.

Morale notwithstanding, where do we finally put a stop to Japanese advances if the Midway Battle resulted in exact reversal of carrier losses? Why would the Japanes lose Guadalcanal or New Guinea if US core Carrier Fleet goes away in mid 1942? Are US forces able to defeat Japanese forces in Hawaii?

What does a necesaary shift of all USN priorities to attempt to defend Hawaii do for North Atlantic battles and North Africa invasion.

Conversely, How does a Guadalcanal win by US affect global strategic position if Midway is lost? How does the US even think about attacking Guadalcanal if the carrier fleet is lost - look at the USN mindset as it was when they weighed anchor and left the jatheads holding the bag... and that was AFTER winning at Midway.

I see Guadalcanal as huge for morale but Midway as monstrous for strategic capability reversal against Japan.

Click to expand...

syscom3 · Apr 12, 2008

The Guadalcanal campaign is what broke the back of the IJN for both warships and aircrews.

After Midway, the Japanese were still on the offensive, and the carrier numbers still equal between the two combatants.

And untill the Avengers were deployed in numbers throughout the fleet, the US was without any torpedo bomber.

Marcel · Apr 12, 2008

But Japan was lacking experienced ground crew for their carriers after Midway. This meant that for the first time in the war, the US had the advantage in Naval battles. And the Japanese Navy first had to be defeated in order to battle all the way up to Japan.

syscom3 · Apr 12, 2008

Marcel said:
But Japan was lacking experienced ground crew for their carriers after Midway. This meant that for the first time in the war, the US had the advantage in Naval battles. And the Japanese Navy first had to be defeated in order to battle all the way up to Japan.

Incorrect. The IJN still had plenty of ground (deck?) crews after the battle. But their margin to absorb losses was lessened.

Aircrew losses = 110 (not all pilots)
Mechanics = 721

Those were not prohibitive losses.

What air victory was more important?

Which air victory was more important?

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None

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