What colour green do you think this Tatzelwurm is???

Discussion in 'Aircraft Markings and Camouflage' started by Alte Hase, Jun 20, 2012.

  1. Alte Hase

    Alte Hase Member

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    #1 Alte Hase, Jun 20, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2012
    Hi guys! Before we go any further, I know that interpreting colours from old black and white WW2 photos is a complete minefield, so I thought I'd draw from your vast collective knowledge to help clarify this question: see the Tatzelwurm (dragon/snake emblem) on the nose of this Bf109? Well this is Hans von Hahn's mount photographed during late August/September 1940, when he was Gruppenkommandeur of I./Jg3. Being a Stab machine, its tatzelwurm (the I. Gruppe emblem) was green, as was the matching spinner tip (the spinner itself was half white, half black with a gren tip).

    Now this aircraft has been modelled by numerous model and decal manufacturers, and mostly the tatzelwurm is a very bright green on the decals, just one shade darker than lime green.Certainly a very bright colour.As far as I know, this was not a colour used by the RLM or Luftwaffe. Only Hasegawa has ever released the tatzelwurm decal for this aircraft in a dark green-pretty much identical to RLM 70 Schwarzgrun (black-green). Looking at this photo, I was wondering if I could ask you guys to use your experience to help answer the question of what kind of green that tatzelwurm really was most likely to be? I'm putting my money on Schwarzgrun, but am interested in your analysis!

    PS: just to orientate you, the whole nose section right up to the windshield is RLM 04 Yellow and the cockerel emblem is a red circle around a black rooster head. The aircraft was finished in heavily mottled RLM 02/71/65.The chevrons are black bordered by white.

    Bf109E%20Hans%20von%20Hahn.jpg
     
  2. A4K

    A4K Well-Known Member

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    I can't prove it but personally I doubt Schwarzgrün. It would be too dark to see the black facial and outline details, kinda defeating the purpose.

    My guess is something in vicinity of the dark Lime Green you mentioned as is often seen in profiles...(but again I can't prove it)
     
  3. beaupower32

    beaupower32 Well-Known Member

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  4. A4K

    A4K Well-Known Member

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    Good stuff mate, have similar profiles myself if more needed.
     
  5. Alte Hase

    Alte Hase Member

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    #5 Alte Hase, Jun 21, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2012
    Thanks guys! I still think It was a darker green...as I said, its always difficult to ascertain from old photos, but look at how dark it looks in the first photo...

    From the photo it also seems that this machine had no "87 Octane" triangle, and the inside space of the Kommandeur's chevron looks really small compared to most decals and profiles...interesting! Also, note the tatzelwurm is not painted around, merely masked off. I have a later photo showing it painted around in yellow,indicating either this was a different machine or this was taken just as yellow nose markings were starting to be applied.
     

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  6. clinton78

    clinton78 Member

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    #6 clinton78, Jun 21, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2012
    I believe the spinner segment is the same colour as the Tatzelwurm, RLM 25 'Hellgrün'. Used on tactical markings, emblems etc. Also used to denote the stab staffels in bomber units. RLM 70 Schwarzgrun would appear very dark in my opinion. :)

    5.jpeg
    Source: My own drawing from LEMB Emblem Database here
     
  7. Alte Hase

    Alte Hase Member

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    Thanks! Hellgrun...I'll check it out!
     
  8. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Clinton.
     
  9. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    This is one I scanned from "Classic Colours: Jadgwaffe Battle of Britain" awhile ago....
     

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  10. clinton78

    clinton78 Member

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    I was thinking about this and you are really stuck with whatever shade of green the Tatzelwurm decal creators have used and if that is any of the completely wild versions of RLM25 I've seen whilst surfing the net that's not good. You could broaden your choices by searching for JG1 green Tatzelwurm decal sheets. Each Tatzelwurm was hand painted and slightly different so you would get away with it if you choose one of the early thin JG1 Tatzelwurms and not the big fat 1943'ish ones. About 1942 the whole of I./JG3 became II./JG1 and the former brought it's Tatzelwurm emblem with it. :)
     
  11. Alte Hase

    Alte Hase Member

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    Thank you for all your help guys! Clinton78's observation is very very astute.I have four different decal sheets with the green Tatzelwurm on them...ranging from bright lime green (and very funny-looking!)to medium green (perhaps RLM 25), to a hasegawa sheet from their Bf109E-4 'Hahn' that is schwarzgrun. So I can match the colour depending on which decal I use.

    The Hasegawa decals both from the 'Hahn' Bf109E and F kits seem to be the closest looking match in so far as shape goes, to the photo I posted.I wish none of these amazing aircraft had crashed or been scrapped,for model builders that would be great but what an amazing collection of 1:1 scale beauties there would be too if they had survived!
     
  12. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    It is a mid toned green, and probably the colour used for identity letter/number markings, which is RLM 25 Hellgrun.
     
  13. Sidney

    Sidney New Member

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    #13 Sidney, Dec 21, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2012
  14. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    Useful PDF, thanks for posting.
     
  15. Sidney

    Sidney New Member

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    You are most welcome, I will try my best to contribute more in the future.
     
  16. Aozora

    Aozora Well-Known Member

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  17. nuuumannn

    nuuumannn Well-Known Member

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    "Tatzelwurmgrün"
     
  18. SPEKTRE76

    SPEKTRE76 Member

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    Look here at this 'RLM' (Reichsluftfahrt Ministerium - State Ministry for Aviationpaint) code page on the '12'o'clock High' website: RLM Color List

    RLM # NAME DESCRIPTION FS # SAMPLE

    RLM 25 # HELLGRÜN (GREEN) # 24108 # (see page)

    Just be aware they 'tried' to standardize paint.
     
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