Liberando
Airman
Hello all,trying to find out the names Japanese Pilots called their aircraft, particularly "The Sally". Anyone know where I might locate this info?Thanks~A
What Did Japanese Pilots call The Sally?
- Thread starter Liberando
- Start date
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Twas the allied command that bestowed to moniker. Just like "Emily" "Frank" "Tony" "Betty". The tradition continues with NATO names for Russian aircraft: "Frogfoot", "Co.ck", "Foxbat", "Fulcrum".
Part II - Allied Aircraft naming conventions (How did the Ki-84 get the name Frank?)
So what's a Patsy, or a Claude or a Willow or a Jake? Well, they're all U.S. code names for Japanese planes during World War II. The strange thing is, many of these aircraft were named after real people. The naming system used by the Allied Forces really had very logical reasoning behind it. The real names of Japanese aircraft were far to hard to remember (A6M2 Type 0 Ship-based fighter model 21), but by assigning a simple, easy to remember name, many of the aircraft could be identified relatively easily and consistently.
The naming system was developed by Captain Frank T. McCoy Jr. McCoy was stationed in Melbourne Australia with the 38th Bomb group as an intelligence officer. McCoy was teamed with Technical Sergeant Francis M. "Fran" Williams who was the senior intelligence specialist, and Corporal Joseph Grattan who handled the clerical duties of the unit.
The system that they developed was quite simple. Fighters and float planes would be given "boys" names. Bombers, recon planes, flying boats and anything else would be given "girls" names. Further refinement of the system occurred as the system evolved. transports would be names that began with a "T" and trainers would be named after trees. Finally, gliders would be given the names of birds.
Some of the more interesting names and where they came from.
The Mitsubishi Ki-2 light bomber, which was featured in several Japanese Aviation magazines was named Louise after McCoy's wife. The name Frank was originally assigned to a drawing of a picture of a concept fighter found in a Japanese magazine. Of course when this fighter never appeared, McCoy shifted the name to the Army fighter Ki-84, which was quite well known by allied fighter pilots in the Pacific.
McCoy again drew from his background in the original naming of the "Paul" (E14Y floatplane). Initially with the lines of the E14Y, it was thought to be a "Val" (D3A) on floats, hence it was called a "June" after McCoy's daughter. When it was later realized that this was a new aircraft it was renamed "Paul".
Fran Williams kept it in the family also. The name "Betty" was given to the well-known Mitsubishi G4M bomber, and was named after a very attractive American nurse from Bridgeville, Pennsylvania that Fran knew (there is more to the story, but this is a family article). Fran assigned the name "Francis" to the Kugisho P1Y1. The aircraft was reported to be a nimble and fast twin-engine heavy fighter. When it was realized that the P1Y1 was actually a bomber, the spelling of the name was changed to the more feminine spelling of "Frances".
Joe Grattan got the name Ida assigned to the Ki-36/Ki-55 trainer/recon aircraft. Ida was Joe's girlfriend that he left behind and was to marry upon return to the states.
The "Val" (Aichi D3A) was named after an Australian Army sergeant that was a close friend of Major Ben Cain, McCoy's boss. An Australian friend of McCoy's name was "Claude" as was the Mitsubishi A5M series of aircraft. Another Aussie that worked closely with the group was George Vivian Remmington. Remmington was responsible for making the drawings of each aircraft. These drawings would be used in the recognition manuals that were issued for training purposes. Of course the Japanese Navy "George" or N1K was one of the Navy's best later in the war.
There were always exceptions to these naming conventions. The "Tony" (Ki-61) for example was initially thought to be the Macchi MC 202, an imported Italian aircraft. The name Tony was given based on it's Italian origins and retained even after it was discovered that it was a Japanese made aircraft. Another name that was a carryover name was the name Tojo was given to the Ki-44 when it was first encountered in the CBI. The official name for the Ki-44 was the John, but being that the name Tojo was so well known the name stuck.
There are many other stories and if you're interested, get yourself the book Japanese Aircraft Code Names and Designation by Robert C. Mikesh. It is still readily available from Zenith books and contains several very interesting stories.
.
Part II - Allied Aircraft naming conventions (How did the Ki-84 get the name Frank?)
So what's a Patsy, or a Claude or a Willow or a Jake? Well, they're all U.S. code names for Japanese planes during World War II. The strange thing is, many of these aircraft were named after real people. The naming system used by the Allied Forces really had very logical reasoning behind it. The real names of Japanese aircraft were far to hard to remember (A6M2 Type 0 Ship-based fighter model 21), but by assigning a simple, easy to remember name, many of the aircraft could be identified relatively easily and consistently.
The naming system was developed by Captain Frank T. McCoy Jr. McCoy was stationed in Melbourne Australia with the 38th Bomb group as an intelligence officer. McCoy was teamed with Technical Sergeant Francis M. "Fran" Williams who was the senior intelligence specialist, and Corporal Joseph Grattan who handled the clerical duties of the unit.
The system that they developed was quite simple. Fighters and float planes would be given "boys" names. Bombers, recon planes, flying boats and anything else would be given "girls" names. Further refinement of the system occurred as the system evolved. transports would be names that began with a "T" and trainers would be named after trees. Finally, gliders would be given the names of birds.
Some of the more interesting names and where they came from.
The Mitsubishi Ki-2 light bomber, which was featured in several Japanese Aviation magazines was named Louise after McCoy's wife. The name Frank was originally assigned to a drawing of a picture of a concept fighter found in a Japanese magazine. Of course when this fighter never appeared, McCoy shifted the name to the Army fighter Ki-84, which was quite well known by allied fighter pilots in the Pacific.
McCoy again drew from his background in the original naming of the "Paul" (E14Y floatplane). Initially with the lines of the E14Y, it was thought to be a "Val" (D3A) on floats, hence it was called a "June" after McCoy's daughter. When it was later realized that this was a new aircraft it was renamed "Paul".
Fran Williams kept it in the family also. The name "Betty" was given to the well-known Mitsubishi G4M bomber, and was named after a very attractive American nurse from Bridgeville, Pennsylvania that Fran knew (there is more to the story, but this is a family article). Fran assigned the name "Francis" to the Kugisho P1Y1. The aircraft was reported to be a nimble and fast twin-engine heavy fighter. When it was realized that the P1Y1 was actually a bomber, the spelling of the name was changed to the more feminine spelling of "Frances".
Joe Grattan got the name Ida assigned to the Ki-36/Ki-55 trainer/recon aircraft. Ida was Joe's girlfriend that he left behind and was to marry upon return to the states.
The "Val" (Aichi D3A) was named after an Australian Army sergeant that was a close friend of Major Ben Cain, McCoy's boss. An Australian friend of McCoy's name was "Claude" as was the Mitsubishi A5M series of aircraft. Another Aussie that worked closely with the group was George Vivian Remmington. Remmington was responsible for making the drawings of each aircraft. These drawings would be used in the recognition manuals that were issued for training purposes. Of course the Japanese Navy "George" or N1K was one of the Navy's best later in the war.
There were always exceptions to these naming conventions. The "Tony" (Ki-61) for example was initially thought to be the Macchi MC 202, an imported Italian aircraft. The name Tony was given based on it's Italian origins and retained even after it was discovered that it was a Japanese made aircraft. Another name that was a carryover name was the name Tojo was given to the Ki-44 when it was first encountered in the CBI. The official name for the Ki-44 was the John, but being that the name Tojo was so well known the name stuck.
There are many other stories and if you're interested, get yourself the book Japanese Aircraft Code Names and Designation by Robert C. Mikesh. It is still readily available from Zenith books and contains several very interesting stories.
.
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Marvellous info, and a good insight to the background; always wondered where the names originatred. Thanks for the explanation.
- Thread starter
- #5
Liberando
Airman
But thats not what I was asking, I was asking what the Japanese pilots called their aircraft. I know they did not use the desiginations assigned by the Allies. I guess to know that would mean that there was someone around who was a Japanese pilot on this forum. I doubt they called it a Mistubishi or what ever they were flying but I only believe this because the penchant for Allied personel to rename their own aircraft. In fact I wonder if they painted names or symbols on their aircraft as well?
- Thread starter
- #7
Liberando
Airman
I hear tale that the B-24 Crews called their Planes "Flying Bricks"
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Liberando, most Japanese aircraft didn't have "names" until 1943.
If the Japanese crews had a pet name for the machine, perhaps someone here may know what it was.
If the Japanese crews had a pet name for the machine, perhaps someone here may know what it was.
- Thread starter
- #9
Liberando
Airman
Well if that is true they still would have called it something,You see I am writing a story that has to do with a Japanese fighter pilot that has been ordered to fly a Sally for a secret purpose from Unit 731. I suppose it can be written around if there is no such name.Its just a shorty so if it isn't an obvious name then it ought ot be ok.I would be remiss by the way if I did not say:
In Rememberence for 12-7-41
In Rememberence for 12-7-41
evangilder
"Shooter"
The CAF had a Zero in the hangar for a long time that was no longer flyable, and would never fly again. It did have the word "Fugu" (Japanese word for puffer fish) near the cockpit. Whether that was put on during or after the war, I don't know, but it was there as long as I can remember. If it was put there during the war, it would have been a nickname for that particular plane, like the "Memphis Belle".
In the Japanese army, operating units usually called their a/c by their year-type designations, or contractions thereof. So 'Sally' was called 'Type 97 Heavy Bomber', '97 shiki juh bakugeki-ki', '97 shiki juh-baku' for short or just 97 shiki if clear one was referring to a bomber. '97' meant 1937. Even after the Japanese Army started adding names to the year type designations (the Type 97 didn't have one), those names were not generally used by operating units, eg. 'Tony' the Type 3 Fighter, named 'Hien' (Swallow) was still usually called 'Type 3 Fighter' by its operators, 3 meaning 1943.
The Kitai designations of Japanese Army planes, eg. Ki-21 for 'Sally' and Ki-61 for 'Tony' were used more in the development and procurement process. They were seldom used by operating units.
In case of the Japanese Navy it was similar. 'Zeke' was called Type 0 Carrier Fighter, rei shiki kanjo sentoki, or reisen for short. It was seldom referred to by operators as A6M. The difference in Navy nomenclature was that the later names of Navy a/c *were* their official type designations, replacing the year type desgination rather than being an addition to it as it was in the Army case. So for example 'Jack' was Interceptor Type Raiden (Thunderbolt), and was generally called 'Raiden' by its pilots.
This is besides unofficial nicknames, which did exist in some cases, eg. the Type 1 Land Attack Plane (ichi shiki rikujo kougeki-ki, '1 shiki rikko' for short), 'Betty' was said to have been referred to as 'one shot lighter'. But that probably wasn't used day to day, where it was ichi shiki rikko.
Joe
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Your best bet to finding crew-member's names for thier aircraft, perhaps search for stories or memoirs from the Japanese crewmen. We have a member here in the forum that's usually a great source of Japanese history, but I haven't seen them on in a while.
To add to what JoeB said, here's a chart of applications used by the Japanese for naming thier aircraft from 1943 onwards:
To add to what JoeB said, here's a chart of applications used by the Japanese for naming thier aircraft from 1943 onwards:
Attachments
- Thread starter
- #13
Liberando
Airman
You guys rock! 97 Shiki is perfect!
- Thread starter
- #14
Liberando
Airman
Does anyone know the range of the Sally?I could probably google that
R Leonard
Staff Sergeant
Type 97 Heavy Bomber (Ki 21 Sally)
97 Shiki Juh Bakugeki-ki (九七式重爆撃機) Abbrev. 97 Juh-baku (九七重爆)
see
REFERENCE: Japanese Aircraft Type/Year Designations and Their Abbreviations
or
Japanese Aircraft Type/Year Designations, Abbreviations, Notes by Osamu TAGAYA
Rich
