Amsel, I think it could be interesting for you to read up on the subject Palestinia 1945-1948. You will find that the situation is much more complex than that. In fact it's one of the most intriguing histories of the 20th century.
What exactly did WW2 in Europe Accomplish?
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Amsel, I think it could be interesting for you to read up on the subject Palestinia 1945-1948. You will find that the situation is much more complex than that. In fact it's one of the most intriguing histories of the 20th century.
Thanks Marcel, and I will brush up on it, especially if you can point me to a good book. It has actually been awhile since I have read much about it. I am familiar with the violence during that period and understand the point you are making. The bottom line is that Isreal is not going away no matter how much people wish it so. It is definantly a situation that is going to drag on for quite some time,and neither side can trust each other. I work for a firm based in Tel Aviv and am sympathetic more towrds the Isrealis then the Palestinians especially now that Hamas is in control of the Gaza. They are a nasty bunch in my opinion.
I think we agree much. I too, think that the Jews deserve their nation. I also think the Palestinians deserve one, as they are victim of political powers from both side. It were the Arabians (Egypthe and Syria) who provoked them against the Jews, and let them down afterwards. I do feel sorry for them (although I make an exception for Hamas and their think-alikes). I believe the murder on Rabin was a great loss for both sides in the conflict as both sides had to gain a lot from him: it was a start of peaceful co-existence.
I do have a few Dutch books on the matter. I will see if one of those came out in English. One was the Biography of Moshe Dayan. One fictional book I can recommend is "Exodus" by Leon Uris. I must say it's very pro-Jewis but I found it a nice start to comprehend the problems in 1948 and it's an enjoyable book to read.
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Clay_Allison
Staff Sergeant
- 1,154
- Dec 24, 2008
My thought on the Israel thing is that they had been suffering everything from discrimination to attack for centuries and the holocaust was only the latest and most horrible. The only way to stop it from happening again was to give them a place to live and defend themselves. Even now they are beset on all sides by rocket launching maniacs who chain women and children to their launching sites to demoralize the people shooting back.
Jews had begun settling in Palestine in the early 20s and they existed there in large numbers before the war. Zionism had been a part of the Jewish community since the turn of the century and without consensus, the traditional homeland became the de-facto destination that people moved to when motivated by that idea. When antisemitism started to become severe in Germany and around Europe, many more fled to Palestine during the 1930s (smart move).
Jews had begun settling in Palestine in the early 20s and they existed there in large numbers before the war. Zionism had been a part of the Jewish community since the turn of the century and without consensus, the traditional homeland became the de-facto destination that people moved to when motivated by that idea. When antisemitism started to become severe in Germany and around Europe, many more fled to Palestine during the 1930s (smart move).
michaelmaltby
Colonel
Amstel - see if you can locate "Bitter Harvest" - by Sami Hadawi (MBE). a remarkable man who grew up in Palestine under Turkish rule, worked for the British mandate gov't from 1918 until 1948, was decorated for his service (MBE) to Britain during WW2 and fled from the Israelis in 1948. First settling in New York at the U.N., then Houston and finally Toronto - where he died. I use to be very sympathetic to the Palestinian cause largely due to his moderate influence but the PLO and Yassir Arafat sickened me of the Palestinian cause and today I generally agree with the Israeli view that the Pals "... have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity".
Nonetheless - the Arab people in the region were promised am independent homeland for their support of the French and British in 1915 (Sykes Picot agreement) and then betrayed by the British in 1917 (Balfor Declaration) which promised exactly the same property to European Jewry at the urging of bankers like the Rothchilds.
Israel has done some amazing things and achieved much since 1948 but it is simply wrong to suggest that the region was an arid desert until they arrived - the Palestinians were hard working, determined people with green thumbs.
Hamas and Hezbulla have taken over from the corrupt PLO - you may hate their politics but they bring needed social infrastructure to the Pals and Shias in South Lebanon - and in return - the population supports them.
I see no resolution to this poisonous situation until Iran is taken out of play and even then it will be very difficult to find good will or accommodation.
Tragic.
MM
Nonetheless - the Arab people in the region were promised am independent homeland for their support of the French and British in 1915 (Sykes Picot agreement) and then betrayed by the British in 1917 (Balfor Declaration) which promised exactly the same property to European Jewry at the urging of bankers like the Rothchilds.
Israel has done some amazing things and achieved much since 1948 but it is simply wrong to suggest that the region was an arid desert until they arrived - the Palestinians were hard working, determined people with green thumbs.
Hamas and Hezbulla have taken over from the corrupt PLO - you may hate their politics but they bring needed social infrastructure to the Pals and Shias in South Lebanon - and in return - the population supports them.
I see no resolution to this poisonous situation until Iran is taken out of play and even then it will be very difficult to find good will or accommodation.
Tragic.
MM
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Clay_Allison
Staff Sergeant
- 1,154
- Dec 24, 2008
If Lebanon could be rebuilt and rid of Hezbollah, Palestinians in Israel could be encouraged to resettle there.
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
I suggest you read some history , Hezbollah is made up of Palestinian refugees , neither side is clean in this area .Both sides have no tolerance for the other side. The one major difference is one of the parties is very media savvy .
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river
Airman
Hi,
It depends upon your rank, where you were, what you saw and how compartmentalised the information was.
But more importantly, considering the main thrust of going to Iraq was the alleged WMD they had, and taking into account the loss of life (on both sides) and monetary cost, it confounds me as to why the allies remain silent if they did indeed find WMD?
If WMD were found then surely the main stream and non-main stream media would be shouting this from the roof tops? It would vindicate the war and show to the doubting world that there was merit in the war and it achieved what was expected.
river
It depends upon your rank, where you were, what you saw and how compartmentalised the information was.
But more importantly, considering the main thrust of going to Iraq was the alleged WMD they had, and taking into account the loss of life (on both sides) and monetary cost, it confounds me as to why the allies remain silent if they did indeed find WMD?
If WMD were found then surely the main stream and non-main stream media would be shouting this from the roof tops? It would vindicate the war and show to the doubting world that there was merit in the war and it achieved what was expected.
river
parsifal
Colonel
The media is about the worst source of information you can rely on. I have a friend who was senior in DFAT, and now works in Treasury. He says the media, both the conservative and more Left wing leaning varieties always distort the truth, often tell straight out lies, knowing they are lying by the way, not just making mistakes
The calassic example of that are the reports of a massacre some years ago in one of the Palestinian camps, by the IDF. Despite being reported by the media as an attrocity, it turned out, AFTER an international enquiry, that no such massacre ever occurred, it was in fact yet another case of the Palestinians using their own people as humans shields, and worse deliberately rotating their wounded to make it look like a massive event had taken place. Do you think the international media ever bothered to admit it had been duped. not even a little...
Lesson for the day, do not rely on the media as a source of your information. I would believe the testimaents of the vets that have been there anytime over the lies pedalled in the media anytime.
Oh, and for the record, Adler was in a position where he could observe well and comment. I dont know Adler, except from this Forum, but I am a vet too (not of Iraq), and you just know, instinctively, when people are full of BS. Adler isnt one of those people
You are treading on very thin ice here I might advise
The calassic example of that are the reports of a massacre some years ago in one of the Palestinian camps, by the IDF. Despite being reported by the media as an attrocity, it turned out, AFTER an international enquiry, that no such massacre ever occurred, it was in fact yet another case of the Palestinians using their own people as humans shields, and worse deliberately rotating their wounded to make it look like a massive event had taken place. Do you think the international media ever bothered to admit it had been duped. not even a little...
Lesson for the day, do not rely on the media as a source of your information. I would believe the testimaents of the vets that have been there anytime over the lies pedalled in the media anytime.
Oh, and for the record, Adler was in a position where he could observe well and comment. I dont know Adler, except from this Forum, but I am a vet too (not of Iraq), and you just know, instinctively, when people are full of BS. Adler isnt one of those people
You are treading on very thin ice here I might advise
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
A-Fricken-Men parsifal!
I agree Parsifal, things are never as clearcut as the media makes them out to be. The world of war, politics,business, and international diplomacy is murky at best and totally unclear most of the time. The real reasons for many things cannot be understood by listening to the evening news or reading a blog. Sometimes you can put two and two together but you cannot always prove that it equals four.
1. What does rank have to do with it? I was not a bottom feeder, but what does rank have to do with it?
2. I was all over Iraq, there was not a place in that damn litter box that I did not go to.
3. Compartmentalized? My own eyes and the confirmation of NBC personnel. Is that enough for you?
Again, what do I know? I am not CNN...
Because I am not CNN, this debate is pointless anyhow. You will believe what you wish.
river
Airman
Hi,
LOL, I'm married.. so treading on thin ice is nothing new.
Listen, I'm not questioning or challenging Adler or anyone. If that's what my posts infer, then I apologise as that was not my intent.
I'm basically asking a question and searhcing for knowledge.
If the war in Iraq was over WMD, and WMD were found, then why is this not told to the world? What gain is there in supressing this information?
river
LOL, I'm married.. so treading on thin ice is nothing new.
Listen, I'm not questioning or challenging Adler or anyone. If that's what my posts infer, then I apologise as that was not my intent.
I'm basically asking a question and searhcing for knowledge.
If the war in Iraq was over WMD, and WMD were found, then why is this not told to the world? What gain is there in supressing this information?
river
parsifal
Colonel
Im married too, so you should know like I do that the number one secret about marriage is respect.....you may not have realized it but your comments were bordering on disrespecting someones service record....
One of the fundamentals of this place is that peoples experiences and service are never questioned. Your comments are easily interpreted as doing just that.
Another rule in this place is that we dont talk politics....and I fail to see a close link between Iraq and the subject of this thread, except if you are trying to run a political agenda.
I am not a mod, but Ive been here longer than you....you can take my advice, or not....I said what I said for your sake, not mine.....matter of fact I am risking being cautioned for doing what I am here
One of the fundamentals of this place is that peoples experiences and service are never questioned. Your comments are easily interpreted as doing just that.
Another rule in this place is that we dont talk politics....and I fail to see a close link between Iraq and the subject of this thread, except if you are trying to run a political agenda.
I am not a mod, but Ive been here longer than you....you can take my advice, or not....I said what I said for your sake, not mine.....matter of fact I am risking being cautioned for doing what I am here
river
Airman
Hi,
river
As I said, that was not my intent and I apologise if my posts were taken as disrespectful.
I'm not running a political agenda, but your point is taken.
No probs. Thanks for the heads-up.
river
parsifal
Colonel
Look enougth said. I wasnt intending to bust your chops, but there are just a few ground rules.
Can we get bak to discussing the thread now
Can we get bak to discussing the thread now
Nothing has been hidden. WMD's were found, but not the extent that was thought in the beginning. Other than chem weapons (small amounts), NBC plants and research facilities with documents for the development of weapons dating as late as 2002 were found. I have been to these facilities...
As stated the amount of weapons originally thought has never been found (and possibly never will be found, it is so easy to hide things out in the desert), but the intent to create banned weapons was certainly there and the factories and facilities have been found.
Agreed, this has gotten way off topic...
The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
There were two countries who launched aggressive wars in Europe during 1939-1945 era
Germany and the USSR.
The main difference was that Germany lost and was occupied and defeated.
The USSR was able to expand its borders to consolidate their hold or occupation of even greater land. Some even given willingly by the western powers. It also came out of the war stronger than it started.
Whereas UK, France and other western countries were dirt poor and having to beg to the Americans.
So Stalin won and Hitler dead. One tyrant won and one didn't.
USA is pretty much blameless at this timeframe...it did nothing and only responded to being attacked.
In fact, you could say if America had been as big and powerful in 1939 rather than 1945, then Germany and Japan wouldnt have even bothered as they would have been defeated much much sooner.
So what WW2 achieved was simple...end of old world imperialism to be replaced by the power politics of 2 superpowers.
Germany and the USSR.
The main difference was that Germany lost and was occupied and defeated.
The USSR was able to expand its borders to consolidate their hold or occupation of even greater land. Some even given willingly by the western powers. It also came out of the war stronger than it started.
Whereas UK, France and other western countries were dirt poor and having to beg to the Americans.
So Stalin won and Hitler dead. One tyrant won and one didn't.
USA is pretty much blameless at this timeframe...it did nothing and only responded to being attacked.
In fact, you could say if America had been as big and powerful in 1939 rather than 1945, then Germany and Japan wouldnt have even bothered as they would have been defeated much much sooner.
So what WW2 achieved was simple...end of old world imperialism to be replaced by the power politics of 2 superpowers.
Condora
Airman 1st Class
I agree, and it doesn't take being in Iraq - or elsewhere - to notice it, if one keeps one's eyes open.
I usually get news from USA, Canada, from friends in Brasil, from home, and the country where I am or was (Spain, UK...).
It's not only the way the news are chosen, but how they are told, or what they are connected with.
It makes a huge difference...
On WMD, I always thought that Iraq couldn't have something very big - Israel wouldn't take that -, but that UK, France, Germany and USA should have a very good ideia of what Iraq had, and how much, as they had provided it.
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
Before it gets too political, why not turn the table around....? How different would Europe and the world be today if WWII hadn't happened, if Hitler had stopped with Austria and Czechoslovakia? Just curious for some interesting answers...
