what if FW190 had been available at the start of the war

[woljags]

please forgive me if this has been done before but what if the FW190 had been available during the start of the war and the Axis forces employed the same tactics as the british{ie faster types against fighters-spitfire/slower type against bombers-hurricane],using these tactics using the 109e and fw190a what would that change and how would you counter this,i don't have any info myself but i know a lot of you are really clued up,what do you think chaps

 

[HubertCumberdale]

boB wise, I would imagine a sensible use of them (Assuming here that most are 109's with some 190's, kind of like the Spit/Hurri ratio in the BoB) would have been to fly the 190s high above bomber formations and intercept the interceptors. Luckily Nazis are not overly sensible people so they probably would have had them doing low level bombing runs

Certainly, RAF losses would have been very high as the 190 was very much a better fighter than the Mk1 Spitfire, let alone the Hurricane. That said, what was the combat radius of the 190? Was it appreciably better than the 109? Thats the critical things so far as the BoB is concerned.

 

[woljags]

as the FW190 1st flew in 1939,if it had been 1st flown in say 1938 some would have been available in time and as you suggest maybe in the numbers available of the spitfire's at the b.o.b,how long would a 190 have over the target area to mop up the RAF fighters

 

[DonL]

Yes the combat Radius of the FW 190A-1 was better then the Bf 109 E3.

The FW 190A had 525 Liter fuel compare 400 Liter of the Bf 109! So I think the FW 190 had 10-15 minutes more time over South England.

 

[tomo pauk]

Since Fw-190 was regularly equipped with drop tank, the real difference in time over England would be because of that feature - the 190 was much heavier, with an engine of greater fuel consumption.

Of course, the Spitfire IX would've messed the results of our experiment

 

[davebender]

Possible but it won't be powered by a BMW801 engine.

Point of Departure.
1937. RLM kisses and makes up with Daimler-Benz management. Consequently Daimler-Benz engine programs will be fully funded.
.....Genshagen DB601 engine plant receives 50 million RM funding as originally planned rather then being scaled back to 20 million RM.
.....DB603 engine development and production will be fully funded.

Dr. Tank preferred Daimler-Benz engines and that's what will power his new fighter aircraft. One of his 1937 fighter aircraft proposals was powered by a DB601 engine. It's the only single engine Focke Wulf fighter which can be in mass production during 1940 so for the sake of this scenerio it's the design which RLM approves.

Now for the hard part. Does anyone have specifications for Dr. Tank's 1937 fighter proposal that was to be powered by a DB601 engine?

 

[stona]

Axis forces employed the same tactics as the british{ie faster types against fighters-spitfire/slower type against bombers-hurricane],

A bit off topic but that isn't what the RAF did. It is another BoB myth,sometimes propagated by people who should know better,Bader springs to mind but then he wasn't in 11 Group.
Squadrons were tasked to intercept a raid according to their geographical position and state of readiness. The composition of the force comprising the raid was irrelevant. It is possible (even likely given the relative numbers) that a raid would be intercepted by Hurricane equipped units with no Spitfires present at all.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Siegfried]

Possible but it won't be powered by a BMW801 engine.

Point of Departure.
1937. RLM kisses and makes up with Daimler-Benz management. Consequently Daimler-Benz engine programs will be fully funded.
.....Genshagen DB601 engine plant receives 50 million RM funding as originally planned rather then being scaled back to 20 million RM.
.....DB603 engine development and production will be fully funded.

Dr. Tank preferred Daimler-Benz engines and that's what will power his new fighter aircraft. One of his 1937 fighter aircraft proposals was powered by a DB601 engine. It's the only single engine Focke Wulf fighter which can be in mass production during 1940 so for the sake of this scenerio it's the design which RLM approves.

Now for the hard part. Does anyone have specifications for Dr. Tank's 1937 fighter proposal that was to be powered by a DB601 engine?

The basic DB603 had been around a long time already. It's possible to immagine the following.

DB603 ends up in FW 190D or Me 209-II or Me 309 style heavy fighter very early in the war, perhaps considerably earlier than the FW 190A1 appeared.
It will be a fast 400mph machine (faster than the early 1.3 ata rated FW 190A1) from the get up and go. The Luftwaffe capitalises its advantage over the RAF to a much greater degree as the Mk.V to Mk.IX conversion will take longer.

The DB601 is not modified into the slightly larger DB605 but instead the DB601E is simply made more refined with the emphasis on improving superchargers and detail refinements to cooling, lubrication, sparking, ignition etc. It hardly lags the DB605 at all.

The emphasis on the DB603 means it is developed faster. Morover with the availabillity of the C3 fuel now transfered from BMW 801 to the DB603 the Luftwaffe gets a 1900 to 2000hp engine very early.

The BMW 801D2 could produce 1700hp with C3 fuel (latter improved) however the DB603 could do 1750hp with B4 87 octane only and the more refined DB603E 1850hp. With the C3 transfered to the DB603A it becomes the DB603G with some 1900hp becomes available. The DB603E with all of the tricks used on the DB601E (inlet port tunning) gets 1850hp on B4 and over 2200-2300 on C3/MW50.

These sorts of power levels ensure that the Luftwaffe would likely have a mass produced 430-440mph fighter in volume service by the time P-47C and P-51B start appearing.

The BMW 801 is produced but is used as a 1585hp bomber engine on B4 fuel engine on Ju 88's as well as on transports such as the Ar 234 or bombers such as the He 177B. It replaces a lot of Jumo 211J engines wh8ch become available for transports.

Premium Ju 88's get the DB603 with C3, providing the Luftwaffe with a bomber almost as fast as the Mosquito and certainly able to provide the Luftwaffe with a fast night fighter.

The BMW 801 needed C3 fuel to produce adaquet peformance for a fighter, the DB603 would have excelled with this fuel.

Junkers Jumo 213 becomes superflous and Junkers concentrates on the Jumo 004 and Jumo 222, the latter program not being suspended or delayed. This engine then comes into production in late 43 or early 44 and powers Ju 88, 188 and He 219 aircraft.

 

[davebender]

Commercial competition was fierce between Daimler-Benz and Junkers.

If DB603 engine program funding isn't withdrawn during 1937 then Junkers would likely put their own Jumo 213 engine on the fast track even without RLM approval. Junkers would tell RLM the Jumo 213 is an advanced development of the generously funded Jumo 211 program rather then a new engine.

I have no idea how soon the Jumo 213 could enter production but the Luftwaffe comes out ahead no matter what. The commercial threat posed by the Jumo 213 will cause Daimler-Benz to spare no effort at making the DB603 as good as it can be. Just as the commercial threat posed by the Jumo 211 caused Daimler-Benz to spare no effort at improving the DB605 engine.

 

[Siegfried]

Commercial competition was fierce between Daimler-Benz and Junkers.

If DB603 engine program funding isn't withdrawn during 1937 then Junkers would likely put their own Jumo 213 engine on the fast track even without RLM approval. Junkers would tell RLM the Jumo 213 is an advanced development of the generously funded Jumo 211 program rather then a new engine.

I have no idea how soon the Jumo 213 could enter production but the Luftwaffe comes out ahead no matter what. The commercial threat posed by the Jumo 213 will cause Daimler-Benz to spare no effort at making the DB603 as good as it can be. Just as the commercial threat posed by the Jumo 211 caused Daimler-Benz to spare no effort at improving the DB605 engine.

I think you are correct re the competitiveness, junkers's decision to produce the Jumo 213 was a decision to go after the Daimler Benz's market;
they even provided the same attachment points and cooland outlets.

However I also see another scenario:

As the sequential number suggest the larger 44L DB603 preceded the 34L DB605 (which was produced to enlarge the DB601 while still staying within the airframe contraints of the Me 109/Me 110)

Hence the DB603 could have been available ahead of the DB605. DB605A entered service in May 1942 on the Me 109G1 based on using technology developed first
in the DB601E, this technology being the tuned variable length inlet port that increased power enormously. So we can argue that the
D B603E could have been available in 1942 with 1850hp.

The DB603A with 1750hp certainly would have been available earlier than this since it first ran in 1936 say 1 year earlier. Rather than waste time engineering the DB605 the engineering effort goes straight into the bigger DB603 which comes available as a 1750hp unit in a debugged by early 1941.

The unit can quickly be applied to the Ju 88 and the still in the future Ju 188 advancing those aircraft as well as the Do 217 (flying with Bramo 323 and underpowered even with BMW801). It goes straight into the Me 210. With enormous amounts of power available Willy Messerschmitt is not overly concerned with improving the Me 210 over the older Me 110. by aerodynamic refinements.

He ruined the program and his company by shortening the tail and removing slats, the two factors which gave the aircraft its disasterous handling.

With oodles of power the Me 210 looks like the Me 410 from the begining. It enters service in may 1941. I can easily outrun the Spitfire C, it can use its superior speed to actually hunt them.

By the time the Spitfire IX comes in the Me 210 has moved to the DB603E and is faster still, not as fast as an IX at high altitude by as good at low.

I then see the Me 109 retaining the DB601. The Me 109F thus continues to grow, remaining streamlined and fast. The DB601E was close to be being
released at 1.58 ata, possibly with C3, either way this should have been a 416 mph machine. Daimler would just improve the supercharger and refine the
engine. It might even be better than the DB605.

Junkers might decide to try and jump ahead of DB by going straight for the Jumo 222.

Very few Jumo 213 were built till 1944, they weren't important.

There were advanced versions of the Jumo 211 beyond the Jumo 211J they include the Jumo 211N and Jumo 211P. I believe with multistage 3 speed superchargers. They themselves might have outpeformed the early Jumo 213's which had ineffient superchargers.

With a big inverted V12 on the "FW 190D3" a motor canon is fitted, the FW 190D3 which allows removal of the outer wing guns and the cowling machine guns. The outer wing guns are replaced with fuel while the now absent cowling guns improve speed. The FW 190D4 becomes about a 650-700 mile range aircraft at maximum cruise, may 1000 with a drop tank.

 

[tomo pauk]

All seem feasible, but:

There were advanced versions of the Jumo 211 beyond the Jumo 211J they include the Jumo 211N and Jumo 211P. I believe with multistage 3 speed superchargers. They themselves might have outpeformed the early Jumo 213's which had ineffient superchargers.

Single stage, 3-speed speed, max powers circa 1500 HP. For high altitde the 211R was a decent one, 1130 HP @ 23600, Climb combat power, fuel B4.

 

[davebender]

DB603 which comes available as a 1750hp unit in a debugged by early 1941

.
I agree. If DB603 engine program funding isn't cancelled by RLM then it enters mass production NLT 1941. Right on time to power the Fw-190 fighter and Do-217 bomber. Both aircraft will be a year too late for the BoB but they should enter service in time for Operation Barbarossa.

unit can quickly be applied to the Ju 88 and the still in the future Ju 188

That makes sense from an engineering standpoint. But Junkers will not power their aircraft with Daimler-Benz engines unless forced to do so.

I then see the Me 109 retaining the DB601. The Me 109F thus continues to grow, remaining streamlined and fast. The DB601E was close to be being
released at 1.58 ata, possibly with C3, either way this should have been a 416 mph machine. Daimler would just improve the supercharger and refine the
engine. It might even be better than the DB605.

Why wouldn't a 1,475 hp DB601 engine encounter the same growing pains as a 1,475 hp DB605 engine?

Junkers might decide to try and jump ahead of DB by going straight for the Jumo 222

They tried that historically and succceeded with the 2,000 hp Jumo 222A, only to be derailed by Milch. If Milch is fired / transferred / demoted then a bunch of things change and all of them benefit the Luftwaffe. But that's a major discussion all by itself.

 

[johnbr]

Me I would fire Milch and speed up production of ju-222 and the db-604.The Fw-190 would have been fast with them in.Why did they not test the Fw-190 with the Db-605.

 

[davebender]

speed up production of ju-222 and the db-604.

April 1941. Jumo 222A engine passed 100 hour endurance test @ 2,000 hp (the orignal 1937 RLM specification required 2,000 hp). After this date Milch was the only thing preventing the 2,000 hp Jumo 222A engine from entering mass production.

Did the DB604 engine pass a 100 hour endurance test @ 2,000 hp? If not then it won't be entering mass production.

Why did they not test the Fw-190 with the Db-605.

I think you mean DB601, which was one of the fighter aircraft proposals made by Dr. Tank during 1937.

Fw-190s could not be produced with DB601 engines for the same reason as Fw-187s and He-100s. During October 1935 RLM reduced funding for the Genshagen DB601 engine factory from 50 million RM to 20 million RM. The funding decision was not reversed until 1940. Consequently Genshagen engine production was unable to meet demand prior to 1943.

By 1943 RLM had spent so much money to develop the BMW801 engine that it was politically impossible to revert to Daimler-Benz engines like Dr. Tank wanted in the first place. Rather like the modern day F-35 which began development 16 November 1996, hasn't produced any operational aircraft and yet will never be cancelled.

 

[woljags]

so are we saying that one of the mistakes that was made at the start of the war by the German Government was that they did not fund proper development of aero engines at an early stage or that the politics of the aero companys and their backers held back the aero industry,some of the ideas put forward here are getting interesting ,i personally don't understand why when faster aircraft and engines available were not either further developed or fast tracked into production even if built by other company's under licence ,the Heinkel 100 springs to mind

 

[davebender]

The Luftwaffe started from nothing during 1935. Everyone was new at their job and they did not yet have established procedures. So it's not surprising they made poor production decisions during 1935 to 1938. That's when DB601 engine funding was cut from 50 million RM to 20 million RM and DB603 engine funding was reduced to zero. It's also when Milch refused Heinkel's suggestion to power the He-177 bomber with four Jumo 211 engines (i.e. He-177B).

However it doesn't explain why Milch was still running amok during 1942, cancelling the Jumo 222A engine, Me-210C light bomber and Ju-252 transport. Goering had personally approved production of the Jumo 222A engine and he was a proponent of the Me-210C. How was Milch able to over ride Goering's decisions and get away with it?

 

[Siegfried]

so are we saying that one of the mistakes that was made at the start of the war by the German Government was that they did not fund proper development of aero engines at an early stage or that the politics of the aero companys and their backers held back the aero industry,some of the ideas put forward here are getting interesting ,i personally don't understand why when faster aircraft and engines available were not either further developed or fast tracked into production even if built by other company's under licence ,the Heinkel 100 springs to mind

Dave bender knows more about the history and politics of it but at some point around 1936/37 Daimler Benz got into a standoff with the RLM (Reich Luftfahrts Minsteriium) ie German Air Ministry regarding funding of an giant engine plant at Geishaggen. As a result only a tiny plant was built and the best aero engines the Germans had was in limited supply. The result was that some aircraft types ended up being cancelled or not considered. Directly effected was the FW 187 (sort of like a Whirlwind) it might have provided a P-38 Lightning style long range escort. Also possibly effected were Heinkels He 112 and He 100. Aircraft like the He 111 and others had to switch to Jumo 211 engines. (not so bad really). The engine had less altitude performance and also came along latter.

The capacity problems possibly meant that the DB603, a large Rolls Royce Griffon rated engine was put on the back burner: it only appeared in dribs and drabs even though it first ran in 1936 (and powered a race car). This meant the Germans were slow in getting a 2000hp class engine off the ground which wass harder for them anyway due to their limited supply of 100 octane fuel. the DB 603A was supposed to power the Me 410, the He 219, and the Do 217. Deliveries were slow enough that the Dorniers were often left for long periods of time sitting around without engines and while the vaunted He 219 only received the weak DB603A (1750hp) instead of the 1900, 2200 and even 2700hp versions possible.

The Germans did very well nevertheless it its fair to state in the first 2 years of the war, the French engines such as the HS-12Y were nowhere near the DB and Jumo capabilities, the Allison was close but not quite there. Really only the Merlin and the DB were in the top class anywhere in the world and the DB could do the job on lower octane fuel.

Three high output engines were the Jumo 222 (like 4 6 cylinder water cooled radials), the DB604 (similar configuration to vulture but larger) and the BMW802 (an 18 cylinder 56L radial equal to an R-3600 designation with variable timming exhaust valves). One aircraft they were supposed to power was the Junker Ju 288. This aircraft which was scheduled to enter service in 1942 was a kind of super bomber:

Huge Lancaster Style bomb bay could carry two torpedoes internally or 8800lbs of bombs
Smooth low friction skin
ejecatable pressurised crew cabin
388mph speed (in 1942)
potent all round periscopically and blister aimed remote controlled canon and heavy machine gun armament.
Easy to produce using large scale pressings. The spars were pressed in one opperation with bolts.

Erhardt Milch, who was well connected in the Nazi party was in charge of building up aircraft production. He tended to favour achievable limited technical goals. He could be very nasty if you got on his wrong side. For instance he publically accused Willy Messeschmitt of treason for selling aircraft to Hungary (all aircraft production capacity was supposed to be his turf and for the Reich) only Messerschmitts personal connections saved him. Possibly over a friend killed in a Messerscmitt aircraft Milch regarded as unsafe.

The Jumo 213 and DB603 could certainly match the Griffon but there was nothing that was equal to the Sabre, R-3350 or even R-2800 (the BMW801 was close, it was an R-2600)

Cancelling (in the sense of removing from the production program, R+D continued) was understandable in the sense that efforts had to be concnetrated.

However it is possible that had DB603 developement never been suspedended for a while it would be pushing out spefific power levels as much as the DB605

So scaling up engine power pro rate for the 35.7L DB605 to 44.5L DB603 pro rata 1.25 (25%)

1943 DB605A 1470hp, DB603 1837hp (actual DB603A only 1750)
1944B605AM/ASM 1700hp DB603 theory 2125hp (actual DB603A 1850)
late 1944 DB605DCM 1800hp DB603 theory 2250hp (actual DB603E only 1850)
Early 1945 DB605DCM 1.98 ata 2000hp DB603 theory 2500hp (actual 2200 or so on DB603LA on Ta 152C)

The DB603 was actually reaching these values, but they weren't getting the engine in production, test (in protype aircraft) only.

 

[michaelmaltby]

".... so are we saying that one of the mistakes that was made at the start of the war by the German Government was that they did not fund proper development of aero engines at an early stage or that the politics of the aero companies and their backers held back the aero industry ...."

Yep! That's what happens in Nazis-style economies .....

"... The Luftwaffe started from nothing during 1935. Everyone was new at their job and they did not yet have established procedures. So it's not surprising they made poor production decisions during 1935 to 1938. "

Sure ... it's not like they had built world class airplanes in WW1 or anything.

MM

 

[davebender]

January 1940.
Mercedes-Benz T80 attempts to achieve 750 kph on the Dessau autobahn. The car was powered by the third DB603 engine prototype (modified to 3,000 hp).

3 February 1940.
RLM funds 120 additional DB603 engine prototypes.

Call me a cynic if you like but I think the January 1940 land speed record attempt was funded by Daimler-Benz as an advertising ploy to get DB603 engine funding restored.

 

[Shortround6]

The Luftwaffe started from nothing during 1935. Everyone was new at their job and they did not yet have established procedures.

Complete and utter balderdash.

the He 45 light reconnaissance bomber was flying in 1932, as of March 1 1934 24 were on strength rising to 150 by the end of the year.

The expansion plan that started in Jan 1934 called for 270 He 46s to be produced by Sept of 1935.

Nine pre production he 51 fighters were been delivered to the "central German publicity squadron" in the summer of 1934. 141 he 51s being called for the expansion plane of Jan 1, 1934 for completion in Sept 1935.

The plan also called for 21 He 59 twin engine float planes.

In fact the plan called for 7 different Heinkel types.

The Arado 65E fighter had been in small scale production since late 1933.

The Arado 68 first prototype was flying in the summer of 1934.

The first Arado 76 trainer prototype was also flying in late 1934, part of a competition between four different manufactures. It came to nothing but helps show the Germans were issuing specifications for future aircraft in 1933 and NOT starting from scratch in 1935.

Lets not forget the Dornier 11, 77 on strength by the end of 1934 and it's siblings, the Do 13 and 23. While the first Do 23 was not delivered until the spring of 1935 such was the production pace that just about 200 had been delivered by the end of 1935 when production stopped. total production for the series topping 350 aircraft. How many other countries were building twin engine bombers at 20 a month?

hardly the results of an organization that was starting from nothing 'during' 1935.

The Luftwaffe "started' several years earlier and the German military had been "planning" it's start for much longer.