What if lots of B-29-like bombers with glide bombs had attacked very well protected convoys?

[Romantic Technofreak]

Hi all,

please imagine the following: lots of very fast and resistable bombers, equipped with Henschel Hs 293 glide bombs, perform attacks on convoys which show themselves even resistable. At the date of Dec. 1, 1943, USA and Britain posessed a number of 85 aircraft carriers of all kind. On the expense of other operations, I mean they could have grouped an number of 30 and more to protect a convoy if needed. So, if Germany had an aircraft comparable to the B-29, and this in numbers, an interesting situation had been possible to arise.

I say, even if Wildcats and Hellcats would prove insufficient against such attackers, the Allies easily could have switched their equipment to Corsairs and Seafires, whoch would have coped with the situation. A friend of mine says no. In his opinion, this combination of bombers and weapons would wear down the Allied carrier force, even for the expense of own losses. He says the loss of carriers and crews for the Allies would weigh much more than the loss of aircraft and crews for Germany.

So, what would you say? Thank you for answers!

Regards, RT

 

[pbehn]

Hi all,

please imagine the following: lots of very fast and resistable bombers, equipped with Henschel Hs 293 glide bombs, perform attacks on convoys which show themselves even resistable. At the date of Dec. 1, 1943, USA and Britain posessed a number of 85 aircraft carriers of all kind. On the expense of other operations, I mean they could have grouped an number of 30 and more to protect a convoy if needed. So, if Germany had an aircraft comparable to the B-29, and this in numbers, an interesting situation had been possible to arise.

I say, even if Wildcats and Hellcats would prove insufficient against such attackers, the Allies easily could have switched their equipment to Corsairs and Seafires, whoch would have coped with the situation. A friend of mine says no. In his opinion, this combination of bombers and weapons would wear down the Allied carrier force, even for the expense of own losses. He says the loss of carriers and crews for the Allies would weigh much more than the loss of aircraft and crews for Germany.

So, what would you say? Thank you for answers!

Regards, RT

The B-29 was the most expensive military project ever undertaken and the USA got them in service in 1945. Everyone would love to have them in 1943 especially the USA. Henschel glide bombs were easily jammed and the further you get away from your target the harder it is to get a hit.

 

[Dinger]

Hi all,

please imagine the following: lots of very fast and resistable bombers, equipped with Henschel Hs 293 glide bombs, perform attacks on convoys which show themselves even resistable. At the date of Dec. 1, 1943, USA and Britain posessed a number of 85 aircraft carriers of all kind. On the expense of other operations, I mean they could have grouped an number of 30 and more to protect a convoy if needed. So, if Germany had an aircraft comparable to the B-29, and this in numbers, an interesting situation had been possible to arise.

I say, even if Wildcats and Hellcats would prove insufficient against such attackers, the Allies easily could have switched their equipment to Corsairs and Seafires, whoch would have coped with the situation. A friend of mine says no. In his opinion, this combination of bombers and weapons would wear down the Allied carrier force, even for the expense of own losses. He says the loss of carriers and crews for the Allies would weigh much more than the loss of aircraft and crews for Germany.

So, what would you say? Thank you for answers!

Regards, RT

Each bomber could only control one glide-bomb at a time and while it was doing so it had to fly straight and level and keep in visual contact with the target, making it an easy target for defending fighters. There were a limited number of radio frequencies available (18) to control the glide-bombs, 2 frequencies were used for each bomb, so only a maximum of 9 bombers could launch an attack at the same time. The Allies quickly countered both the Hs293 glide-bomb and the Fritz-X with effective jamming equipment. Kehl-Strasbourg radio control link - Wikipedia. The wingspan of the Hs293 would preclude even a B29 from carrying many of them; maybe 2 semi-externally, perhaps a total of 4 if an additional 2 could be slung under the wings. Since the Germans struggled to get the Heinkel 177 into service (which could, and did, carry Hs293s) I fail to see how they could have found the resources to build something approaching the B29 in any great numbers.

 

[swampyankee]

ECM seriously degraded the effectiveness of nazi anti-ship missiles. Considering, too, that the German aircraft would likely have to overfly the UK unless operating from Norway, North Africa, or Spain, the carriers now escorting the convoys would have a nice, long warning time* to get those aircraft to altitude.

All these "let's see how we can make the f***ing nazis win" scenarios seem to assume the Allies were terminally stupid and wouldn't react.

 

[Romantic Technofreak]

There had been a wire-controlled version of the Hs 293 too. My friend denies the "easy target", claiming the Hs 293 could be fired at top speed as well. Eventually, there is no hint that the bomber had to slow down for launching and guiding the glide bomb. My friend further says, picking only the flat-tops for the first attack would kick them out of service, so there is no need for to carry a bigger number of glide bombs. I say, the Allies could have created fighter patrols of about 100 aircraft to protect the convoy even from some distance, and from altitude.
The production capacity is a different theater. Germany could have made peace or truce with the USSR and have concentrated on Atlantic warfare.

Regards, RT

 

[swampyankee]

There had been a wire-controlled version of the Hs 293 too. My friend denies the "easy target", claiming the Hs 293 could be fired at top speed as well. Eventually, there is no hint that the bomber had to slow down for launching and guiding the glide bomb. My friend further says, picking only the flat-tops for the first attack would kick them out of service, so there is no need for to carry a bigger number of glide bombs. I say, the Allies could have created fighter patrols of about 100 aircraft to protect the convoy even from some distance, and from altitude.
The production capacity is a different theater. Germany could have made peace or truce with the USSR and have concentrated on Atlantic warfare.

Regards, RT

More accurately, had Hitler not broken the treaty of peace & friendship between the two worst human beings of the 20th Century.

Again, your friend's conclusion requires the Allies to have been too stupid to react to a major nazi change in production and strategy. The USAAF had a long, active, and largely successful effort in developing engines and aircraft for high altitude flight. The USN had access to all that technology. Does your friend really think that the Allies won by nothing but luck and outproducing the nazi filth?

 

[pbehn]

ECM seriously degraded the effectiveness of nazi anti-ship missiles. Considering, too, that the German aircraft would likely have to overfly the UK unless operating from Norway, North Africa, or Spain, the carriers now escorting the convoys would have a nice, long warning time* to get those aircraft to altitude.

All these "let's see how we can make the f***ing nazis win" scenarios seem to assume the Allies were terminally stupid and wouldn't react.

As I recall from a programme on TV so hard to look up, the successes of glide bombs were before it was realised what they were, then it was noted by a few crew that had been hit that there was an aeroplane visible when it happened and things were pieced together.

 

[RW Mk. III]

Your friend can save a lot of time and just say "what if the Nazis developed the v2 and atomic bomb to full production capacity in 1940?" Now he gets his wish. The Nazis win.

It's impossible. But so is creating any realistic scenario where the Germans win.


Edit: quoted wrong person

 

[pbehn]

There had been a wire-controlled version of the Hs 293 too. My friend denies the "easy target", claiming the Hs 293 could be fired at top speed as well. Eventually, there is no hint that the bomber had to slow down for launching and guiding the glide bomb. My friend further says, picking only the flat-tops for the first attack would kick them out of service, so there is no need for to carry a bigger number of glide bombs. I say, the Allies could have created fighter patrols of about 100 aircraft to protect the convoy even from some distance, and from altitude.
The production capacity is a different theater. Germany could have made peace or truce with the USSR and have concentrated on Atlantic warfare.

Regards, RT

It is just a fantasy scenario constructed for Germany to win. It hinges on sinking carriers with a 650lb explosive and then a whole convoy with the same.

 

[RW Mk. III]

It is just a fantasy scenario constructed for Germany to win. It hinges on sinking carriers with a 650lb explosive and then a whole convoy with the same.

Exactly. Where do the development resources needed for this functional b29 type bomber come from? What doesn't get developed? An awful lot of stuff that's what. For all the engines and aluminum and avgas and crew on these bombers Germany is out hundreds of much-needed fighters.

 

[Dinger]

There had been a wire-controlled version of the Hs 293 too. My friend denies the "easy target", claiming the Hs 293 could be fired at top speed as well. Eventually, there is no hint that the bomber had to slow down for launching and guiding the glide bomb. My friend further says, picking only the flat-tops for the first attack would kick them out of service, so there is no need for to carry a bigger number of glide bombs. I say, the Allies could have created fighter patrols of about 100 aircraft to protect the convoy even from some distance, and from altitude.
The production capacity is a different theater. Germany could have made peace or truce with the USSR and have concentrated on Atlantic warfare.

Regards, RT

The wire-guided version of the Hs293 never saw service. When the Allies tried to make it work after the war they too failed. There was an interesting Air-Britain article a few years back about the numerous wire-guided German projects for air-to-air, air-to-ground and ground-to-air missiles that the Germans were working on at the end of the war. It concluded that they were all doomed to failure because the human control input simply would not be fast enough to control the missiles concerned. - I'll look it up and edit this post with a reference to it*. This seems to be building into a nonsensical argument. Will your friend next suggest these missiles are nuclear-armed ??? Scranjet powered???? Delivered by German-built B-47s instead of B-29s???

* The article is "Anti-Aircraft weapons of WW2: Dispelling the Myth" by Chris Gibson in the June 2011 (Issue 146) edition of Air-Britains "Airomilitaria" magazine. It contrasts the efforts of the Germans to build wire-guided manually controlled missile systems with British projects such as "Brakemine", "Spaniel" and "BEN".

 

[Tkdog]

It's a bizarre question really. Lots of heavy bombers attacking a convoy with crude guided weapons would be a threat. Yes. If it would have been feasible to do such a thing in WW2 it would likely have been done. It really wasn't.

the folks that had the bomber were, justifiably, more interested in using it strategically. The ones who were desperate enough to flail around looking for wonder weapons didn't have anything like the infrastructure to make something like this more than a stunt. the ones who had neither used any plane that could be pressed into service as suicide missiles.

Which, incidentally, likely shows the upper end of what was possible with your scheme. It is unlikely that a remote device would have been able to be more accurate or effective than the kamikaze threat actually was. That is, troublesome, but manageable. From a strategic point of view it would have been a giant investment for the Germans for minimal benefit beyond what the submarines were already accomplishing.

 

[RCAFson]

Hi all,

please imagine the following: lots of very fast and resistable bombers, equipped with Henschel Hs 293 glide bombs, perform attacks on convoys which show themselves even resistable. At the date of Dec. 1, 1943, USA and Britain posessed a number of 85 aircraft carriers of all kind. On the expense of other operations, I mean they could have grouped an number of 30 and more to protect a convoy if needed. So, if Germany had an aircraft comparable to the B-29, and this in numbers, an interesting situation had been possible to arise.

I say, even if Wildcats and Hellcats would prove insufficient against such attackers, the Allies easily could have switched their equipment to Corsairs and Seafires, whoch would have coped with the situation. A friend of mine says no. In his opinion, this combination of bombers and weapons would wear down the Allied carrier force, even for the expense of own losses. He says the loss of carriers and crews for the Allies would weigh much more than the loss of aircraft and crews for Germany.

So, what would you say? Thank you for answers!

Regards, RT

See: Warriors and Wizards: The Development and Defeat of Radio-Controlled Glide Bombs of the Third Reich by Bollinger.

In November 1943 convoy SL 139/MKS 30 was attacked by FW200 bombers with conventional bombs and 25 x HE177s each armed with two Hs293 guided missiles. Unfortunately for the Luftwaffe, HMCS Prince Roberts, an RCN anti-aircraft cruiser joined the convoy just in time to confront the He177 attack, and she fought an air-sea duel for 2 1/2 hours (aided by ECMs), probably shooting down one or two of the attackers, and holding convoy losses to just one straggler. RCN and RN experience had shown that prompt engagement of the attacking aircraft with accurate antiaircraft fire would cause it to jink and break missile lock. Additionally they had developed ECMs that could detect missile launch and interfere with it's RC guidance systems. HMCS Prince Roberts had been refitted as an AA cruiser in early 1943 and was given the latest in fire-control, radar systems and up to date ECM. The battle for convoy SL 139/MKS 30 was one of the least known but most interesting battles fought by the RCN in WW2.

 

[pbehn]

The advantage of a B-29 is that it could launch from great height and a long way from the target, wouldn't that interfere with the operators ability to hit the target?

 

[RCAFson]

The advantage of a B-29 is that it could launch from great height and a long way from the target, wouldn't that interfere with the operators ability to hit the target?

The He177 could do same...but the Hs293 couldn't because it relied on visual observation of the missile for guidance control so the operator needed to see the missile which limited the effective range and the aircraft had to have a clear line of sight to the target, and cloudless conditions were rare.

 

[swampyankee]

There had been a wire-controlled version of the Hs 293 too. My friend denies the "easy target", claiming the Hs 293 could be fired at top speed as well. Eventually, there is no hint that the bomber had to slow down for launching and guiding the glide bomb. My friend further says, picking only the flat-tops for the first attack would kick them out of service, so there is no need for to carry a bigger number of glide bombs. I say, the Allies could have created fighter patrols of about 100 aircraft to protect the convoy even from some distance, and from altitude.
The production capacity is a different theater. Germany could have made peace or truce with the USSR and have concentrated on Atlantic warfare.

Regards, RT

If it's wire guided, cutting the wire would eliminate the guidance channel. This would be in the extended realm of "ECM," and could be managed by pilots deliberately flying through the wire or, better, by the pilots destroying the launching aircraft (prefered) or at least killing the person guiding the weapon. The other issue is that there is a practical limit to the length of the wire, which is dependent on the material used for the wire.


Since the Allies had this invention called "radar," the nazi bombers would have been intercepted beyond their weapons' stand-off ranges. This largely worked with the Japanese, whose stand-off weapons were self-guided and not subject to ECM.

 

[Snautzer01]

Just a thought. If anybody could have made large scale production it would have been the us. So that is a done deal.
Why only ships? How about more or less pin point attacks towards dams, powerstations etc. Fighter cover would not have been a problem.

 

[RCAFson]

Just a thought. If anybody could have made large scale production it would have been the us. So that is a done deal.
Why only ships? How about more or less pin point attacks towards dams, powerstations etc. Fighter cover would not have been a problem.

The RAF was working on the larnyx guided "robot bomb" in the 1920s and it worked reasonably well. The USN/USAAF did develop a guided TDS drone with TV guidance during WW2 and was beginning to deploy it when the war ended. Joseph Patrick Kennedy Jr (JFK's older brother) was killed in July 1944 whilst crewing a robot bomb B24 for TO (the crew would bail out as they crossed the UK coast), when the bomb detonated prematurely over the UK. The B24 robot bomb had TV guidance and was slated to attack a target in Nazi occupied France.

 

[Elmas]

Regia Aeronautica made some attempts for an Aereo Radio Pilotato: it was tested but a failure in the trasmitting equipment made the plane to crash in Algeria. 8 Sept. '43 put an end to the tests.
Theplanes for the fiirst test took off from an air base not far from the place where I live.

VILLACIDRO: UN PO' DI STORIA

Aereo Radio Pilotato - Wikipedia

 

[RW Mk. III]

The RN was working on guided "robot bomb" in the 1920s and it worked reasonably well. The USN/USAAF did develop a guided TDS drone with TV guidance during WW2 and was beginning to deploy it when the war ended. Joseph Patrick Kennedy Jr (JFK's older brother) was killed in July 1944 whilst crewing a robot bomb B24 for TO (the crew would bail out as they crossed the UK coast), when the bomb detonated prematurely over the UK. The B24 robot bomb had TV guidance and was slated to attack a target in Nazi occupied France.

Don't forget the pigeon-directed missile.