What if the Me210 was operational in 1942?

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by wiking85, Jun 1, 2013.

  1. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    #1 wiking85, Jun 1, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2013
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_210

    Historically the Me 210 was disaster of a project that resulted in the Bf110 having to be reintroduced until it successor could be fixed in late 1943. This cost German lots of aircraft lost in production time and as a result of having to constantly retool between types. Having an obsolete aircraft in service from 1942 on (the Bf110) also didn't help. So what if whatever the issue was with the Me210 could have been worked out in time to get it as functional as the historical Me 410 later was...but in April 1942 when it was supposed to have been in service?
    What would it mean for the night fighter, figher-bomber/ground attack, bomber destroyer, and various other roles is was to fill?
    For one thing there would be at least 1000 more total aircraft available by 1943 than there was historically available without the historical setbacks of this type; there would be overall more of this type of aircraft by the end of the war than just the historical Bf110+Me210/410 models by several thousand IMHO. It would also be much more effective in its roles than the Bf110 was and would appear before it had lost its usefulness, saving a number of pilots that would otherwise be lost flying less useful aircraft past 1941 like the Bf110.
    Thoughts?

    Edit:
    From another post on this aircraft by Stona:
    http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/technical/me-210a-1-article-10723.html
     
  2. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    As a night fighter (with, for 1942/43, proper electronics gear), one can imagine an useful airplane. One shortcoming would be the need for additional 2000 DB-601s/605s in 1942/43, if the envisioned 1000 additional airframes really can be built.
     
  3. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    Me-210 was perfect for long range light bomber and recon missions. With cancellation of Bomber B program I think Me-210 would have gotten those missions.

    Initially there would have been no night fighter version. It's possible one would have been developed. It's equally possible more Ju-88s would have been completed as night fighter aircraft rather then as light bombers and recon aircraft. Meanwhile Me-210 would become the Luftwaffe schnell bomber backbone.
     
  4. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    1942 Germany had a surplus of Jumo 211 engines and DB605 engine had unresolved technical glitches. I wonder if Me-210 light bomber units might have been powered by 1,340hp Jumo 211F engine.
     
  5. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    I don't see why not with a little bit or reengineering.
     
  6. Civettone

    Civettone Active Member

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    I am convinced it would have been a war winner.
    Don't worry about the extra costs. Having one standard design as heavy fighter, night fighter, light bomber, heavy attack aircraft, medium-range recon, ... would simply production. The design could effortlessly be upgraded with DB 605 and then DB 603 and thus stay in production until the arrival of the Me 262, Ar 234 and/or Do 335 series. This would result in a massive production rationalisation and thus increase of total numbers.

    Kris
     
  7. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    The Me-210 with Jumo-211F indeed seem like interesting idea (availability-wise), though the performance should suffer due less power available than with DB-601F on board. The intercooled 211J should offer the same power as DB-601F under 2 and above 4 km of altitude, both engines operating on 'Steig Kampflesitung' (30 min rating). Of course, the 601F still has the 'Start Notlesitung' (5 min rating) from early 1942 on, and the intercooler on the 211J means some additional drag. It would be interesting to know whether the Jumo-211F/J was ever cleared for 'Notleistung' at altitude - manual allows only for 'Start', at zero altitude (help!)?
    All in all - engines are better spent on bomber Ju-88 than on bomber Me-210?

    Chart with Jumo-211F power (gray; thick line for 'St Kmpflst'); DB-601E (green), and 211J (red) lines are for 'Steig Kampflesitung'.

    chart jumo 211j 211f 601e.JPG
     
  8. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe so. It wasn't that good an aircraft and in the context of overall aircraft production from 1943 onwards the numbers would not have made a significant difference faced with the overwhelming numerical and qualitative superiority of the opposition.

    It might have rationalised production to some extent but the RLM kept changing its mind about what it wanted the Me 210 to be. This in itself confused the production process.

    It wouldn't have altered the balance of air power in the east and would have gone into the mincer, along with all other Luftwaffe types, in the west.

    There really was no wonder weapon that could have altered the outcome of the war. The Me 210 certainly wasn't one.

    Cheers

    Steve
     
  9. pattle

    pattle Member

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    I can't really see that the Me410 would of helped the German's much. As a bomber it's load was too small to be much more than nuisance bomber, and it wasn't going to survive over Britain by day in this role, not that this was the German's priority in 1942 anyway. Me 410's would have been useful escorting JU52's across the med and things like that, but I think in most other roles there were better planes.
     
  10. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    It would have been useful in the West as a bomber killer by day and night, night intruder, and of course over the ocean as a torpedo bomber and fighter escort for long range naval uses (think bay of Biscay where the Ju88 fighter was slaughtered). In the East it would have been useful as a day or night bomber, plus would have ground attack uses, especially using cluster bombs. It could go after 'hot' targets that the Ju88 was too slow for and could have functioned better as a tank buster than the Ju88P or Hs129 later in the war.
     
  11. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    Messerschmitt thought that it was capable of the various roles above and some. It even produced drawings of more than a dozen sub-types. Most never got built.
    Cheers
    Steve
     
  12. Civettone

    Civettone Active Member

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    There is a lot of debate about how good the Me 210/410 was. Personally, I think it would have been equal to the Mosquito, which is IMHO the best plane of WW2, if it had appeared a bit earlier and in larger numbers. It was rather succesful as an nocturnal intruder over England just as the Mosquito was: flying at speed and at large altitude it is very difficult to intercept. Apparently, it was a more accurate dive bomber than the Stuka; something which is difficult to merely fathom: better than perfect? It was definitely a better bomber aircraft than the Ju 88: faster, more accurate (in dive) and bigger internal payload. It would also have been a superior night fighter as the standard Ju 88 nightfighter up to early 1944 was the Ju 88C, which couldn't even manage 500 km/h. The only thing that neither the Me 210/410 nor Mosquito could do, was fighter vs fighter. As a bomber destroyer with BK 5 it was kolossal.

    Just some thoughts on that.
    Kris
     
  13. DonL

    DonL Banned

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    #13 DonL, Jun 1, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2013
    Do you realy believe what you are writing?
    For a reference I advise this book:
    [ MESSERSCHMITT BF 110/ME 210/ME 410 AN ILLUSTRATED HISTORY BY MANKAU, HEINZ](AUTHOR)HARDBACK: Amazon.de: Heinz Mankau: Bücher

    The performance of the Me 210 was bad/worse compare to the Me 110, Beaufighter and especially to the Mosquito, it's top speed with the same engines was slower then the Me 110.
    Every mission that include some fighter duty or recon at daylight would end in a disaster and the Me 210 would be shot down like hot turkeys, as we have seen in real-life from Me 110 missions at daylight since 1942, also as a nightfighter that would be slower then a ME 110 nightfighter, you can't imagine something special, more the opposite.

    performance comparison:

    B110F2 mit DB601F 2x1350ps
    top speed: 570km/h
    climb: 6000 m in 9 min
    6,75t takeoff weight as Zerstörer

    Me210A-1 mit DB601F 2x1350ps
    top speed: 565km/h
    climb: 6000m in 13 Minuten
    9,69t takeoff weight as Zerstörer

    Bf110G-2 mit DB605B 2x1450ps
    top speed 595km/h in 6100m
    climb: 6000 m in 8 min
    7,79 t takeoff weight as Zerstörer

    Me210Ca-1 mit DB605B 2x1450ps
    top speed 580 km/h in 6500m
    climb: 6000m in 11,5 min
    9,706t takeoff weight as Zerstörer

    Even if we compare the Ju 88 G6 with Jumo 213E engines and MW 50 and no nightfighter equipment, it was equal from speed to the ME 410 both at 630-640 km/h. And the ME 410 was shot down as heavy fighter against the heavy bomber at defending of the Reich, like hot turkeys from the escort fighters.

    The ME 210 had two advantages compare to the ME 110 more range and a small bombay for 1000kg, but with worse performance.
    To claim the ME 210 would be better then the Ju 88 is simply to my opinion absurd, because as nightfighter, it would be slower or equal in performance to the Ju 88 with much less endurance and with less armament.
    As daylight bomber it would only be faster as the Ju 88 with only the 1000kg in the internal bombay, with external racks it would be euqual fast with less endurance and less bomb capacity. Also the ME 210 would be much too slow to operate successful as daylight bomber at the West and with very little impact with only 1000kg bomb capacity.

    The only german design that could do all this duties with success from the performance datas (except light bombing) was the FW 187, because it had the performance and speed to match with the Moussie and other single engine fighter, and wouldn't be only an other hot turkey to be shot down as the ME 410 and ME 110 had shown in real-life from 1942 and forward.
     
  14. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    An aircraft which can do a little bit of everything excels at nothing. Germany should have learned this lesson with Me-110.

    1942 German Recon Aircraft Production.
    .....567 x Ju-88
    .....79 x Me-110.
    646 total.

    1942 German Light Bomber Production.
    .....2,270 x Ju-88

    Me-210C was well suited to these roles without modification and we are talking about quite a few aircraft. So that's where I would start. After 2,000 Me-210C are in service then RLM can consider other possible aircraft roles. Or else Germany can build light bomber version like hot rolls so the Heer can expect air support on a regular basis. Me-210C bomber was fast enough that it could perform many missions without escort on Russian front (i.e. where most European combat took place).
     
  15. DonL

    DonL Banned

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    There was no need for a light bomber at 1942 and forward for the LW.
    There was a need for a capable long range escort fighter to escort the LW bomber or anti ship a/c's at the Mediterranean, the Atlanrtic, Norway and Bay of Biscay, also for a fast recon and an a/c what was able to intercept a Moussie at day and night.
    Where is the f.. need for a light bomber?
     
  16. altsym

    altsym Member

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    #16 altsym, Jun 1, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2013
    There were some 109 nightfighters which had the specific task of intercepting Mossies.. the LW need more of these 109's, radar guided, throughout western Europe. I feel the need was strong for light bombers, like the Me 210. The could have adopted night bombing missions. They were small and nimble enough to get in and out. Granted there would be some losses but that's the cost of war.
     
  17. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    Long range / fast cruising speed / dive bomber. Me-210C with 1,000kg in bomb bay is a good weapon for destroying bridges, logistical centers, command posts, airfields, communications centers, artillery batteries, trains etc. which short range Ju-87D cannot reach.

    With 2,420 liters of internal fuel plus 2 x 500kg bombs Me-210C also offers some potential to attack strategic targets such as factories and power plants.
     
  18. Civettone

    Civettone Active Member

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    Okay. But everybody here is so enthusiastic about the Ju 88 and Mosquito. I am merely saying that the Me 210/410 could do what these aircraft did. Sometimes better, sometimes worse.


    Sure, the Bf 110 was a better fighter than the Me 210.
    Don, with all respect, but I think you are missing my point. I am saying that the Me 210/410 design should have been the standard light bomber/nightfighter/recon/Zerstorer of the Luftwaffe instead of producing both Bf 110, Me 410 and Ju 88. War economics dictate that standardisation of production hugely increases production. Plus, it simplifies logistics and maintenance.

    And I did say that none of them are good against other fighter aircraft. But I do remember seeing what the Me 410 was able to do against the B-17s when caught without escort fighters. In one sortie, 10 were shot down without any Me 410 losses. I assume that your response to that is that this is useless when the P-51s appear and I will agree with you. But up to early 1944, the Me 210/410 would have been very succesful. This is an issue of concept: the heavy fighter was on its way out. But we cannot state that the LW should have expected American fighter planes flying all the way to Berlin.

    No Ju 88G6 with Jumo 213E engines was ever built, so its maximum speed is pure conjecture. I know an unarmed Ju 88S with Jumo 213A engines could reach 611 km/h.

    I fail to see what is absurd about it. Equivalent to the Me 210 would be the Ju 88C which never reached 500 km/h. The Me 210 had a top speed of 565 kmh, equal to that of the Bf 110F (570 kmh) but would not have needed external fuel tanks like the Bf 110, thereby making it ultimately faster than both the Bf 110F and Ju 88C. So again, is this really that absurd?

    [quoteAlso the ME 210 would be much too slow to operate successful as daylight bomber at the West and with very little impact with only 1000kg bomb capacity. [/quote]I was more seeing it as a tactical bomber. As a strategical bomber both were insufficient. But what I do know is that the Me 210 would be able to defend itself better than the Ju 88A.


    Definitely not. The Fw 187 was a light twin-engined fighter. It did not have sufficient room to house both radar and radar operator and a strong armament. It was a good fighter aircraft but definitely not worth the cost of two engines. The only advantage it had over the Bf 109 was its range. No one in 1939 expected that would be a problem just one year later over the coast of Britain. :)

    Kris
     
  19. Civettone

    Civettone Active Member

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    I think the British Mosquito has shown sufficiently what a light bomber can be worth.
    And Dave, you forgot the function of pathfinder and intruder, very important!

    Kris
     
  20. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    Amen. Don't expect an outstanding long range day fighter aircraft to excel at every mission the Luftwaffe performs.

    Fw-187 was perfect for bomber escort and long range recon. Probably also great for daytime interception of enemy bombers. Leave well enough alone.
     
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