What is the best of these four Dive Bombers?

[SamPZLP.7]

There is the Stuka, Skua, Val, or the Dauntless

 

[syscom3]

The Dauntless of course!

 

[oldcrowcv63]

Dauntless, 4 Sure! 4 its basic performance, historical importance, effectiveness throughout the war, even in the presence of strong fighter opposition. It was upgradable to enhance its capability (through 6 marks, although the last -6 came too late) . An eminently tough aircraft to deflect from its unholy purpose.

 

[davebender]

- Best bombing accuracy.
- Automatic pull out system. This may have contributed to accuracy. Pilots knew the aircraft would recover from a dive even if they blacked out or were injured by ground fire. So they could chance diving right to the limit of aircraft capability.
- No dangerous flight characteristics. Operates well from primative airfields.
- Very reliable
- Largest bomb load.
- Best armor protection.
- Tied with SBD for greatest max speed.
- Equally capable at ground attack by placing gun pods on underwing hardpoints.
- Probably the least expensive of the bunch. 131,175 RM / $52,470.

The Ju-87 looked ugly and obsolescent but it wasn't. Neither is the modern day A-10. When ground troops are in need of air support these are the aircraft they prefer.

 

[T Bolt]

The North American A-36 Apache should be on the list. From everything I've read it was a very effective dive bomber and could defend it's self because it was in effect a Mustang. The only reason it didn't do more, or was not as well known was that very few of them were Built (500) due to North American switching production of the P-51 from the Allison to the Merlin.

 

[oldcrowcv63]

The North American A-36 Apache should be on the list. From everything I've read it was a very effective dive bomber and could defend it's self because it was in effect a Mustang. The only reason it didn't do more, or was not as well known was that very few of them were Built (500) due to North American switching production of the P-51 from the Allison to the Merlin.

Hard to argue with a dive bomber that can defend itself, carry about 80% of the payload of an SBD with a similar combat radius. But can it land on a postage stamp floating in the middle of the great watery desert

I recall seeing a photo of a P-51 rigged for carrier landings so perhaps it would have been possible. I expect there would have been some penalty to such a capabiity retrofit.

 

[T Bolt]

Carrier trials on CV-38 Shangri-La on Nov 15, 1944. All went well, but the maximum arrester cable speed (90mph) and the stall speed of the Mustang (82mph) were too close for safety.

 

[davebender]

An A-36 carrying a 2,000 lb bomb cannot defend itself any better then a Ju-87D carrying a 1,000 kg bomb. All bombers carrying a payload require fighter escort.

 

[renrich]

If you are going to open up the field and include the A36, then why not the Corsair. It could dive more steeply than the SBD and was almost as accurate and it would run rings around the others.

 

[davebender]

The 4 aircraft in the poll were all in service before the end of 1941. So I assume 1941 to be the cut off date.

 

[oldcrowcv63]

An A-36 carrying a 2,000 lb bomb cannot defend itself any better then a Ju-87D carrying a 1,000 kg bomb. All bombers carrying a payload require fighter escort.

Dive bombers tend to be most vulnerable after dropping their bombs during their retirement from the target. I would expect the JU-87, the Val or Skua to be more vulnerable than either an SBD or an A-36 during all phases of an attack. Definitely less vulnerable than any of the fighter bombers that came to the fore in the war's latter stages.

From what I've seen looking, at published specs, the A-36 couldn't carry a 2,000 pound bomb. Whatever it was carrying, I wouldn't expect any dive bomber to defend itself very well before it dropped its payload. A relatively high target approach speed would make the A-36 (Or F4U or F6F) a bit less vulnerable, while the aft-facing flex-guns are the SBD's (or JU-87's) insurance during both phases of an attack. The speed, manueverability, and forward facing armament of the A-36 would seem to be helpful for defense during the retirement phase of an attack.

 

[davebender]

It also makes weapons delivery less accurate. That's why really good CAS aircraft such as the Ju-87D and A-10 fly slowly and rely on heavy armor for protection against ground fire.

 

[oldcrowcv63]

Target approach speed as in the high altitude horizontal run toward the target not the dive down onto the target which of course involves deployment of the dive flaps to slow the airspeed.

 

[davebender]

Most level bombers and dive bombers cruised at 160 to 180mph with a typical bomb load. What was the economical cruise speed of an A-36 when carrying at least 1,000 lbs of ordnance?

 

[oldcrowcv63]

You know, Dave, that's a really good question!

I may have been projecting a bias based on experience here. In the modern era, an acceleration to a higher target approach speed above that of the economic cruise is normal. For example, a target approach speed (dirty) from the Initial Point, may be some 50-60 knots faster than that of the economic cruise phase and last for perhaps the last 25-50 miles (4-8 ) minutes of flight to the target. Quite honestly, I don't know what a typical attack speed profile was in WW 2. I just assumed whatever it was, that final approach to the target would be faster for an A-36 than any of the other (Non-fighter bomber type) aircraft listed. It's one thing to do this over land assuming the ground is visible and a pilot has ground reference points to always know the location of the target. It's quite another for a naval dive bomber (could be any of the 4 dedicated dive bomber's listed) which is searching for its target somewhere on the big blue (assuming no ASV-type RADAR for target detection). In that case, the target approach speed may not have increased at all until the push over point.

You've asked the economical cruise for an A-36. All I can find is what's listed on the web: a cruising speed of 250 mph. America's 100,000 doesn't really provide much that I could find in a quick look on the A-36. I'd be surprised if it were quite that high but I suppose it could be. Would there be a final sprint to the target? I suppose over land there would be, but over water? Dunno! I am hoping somebody here has a better answer.

 

[davebender]

The Mosquito was one of the fastest bombers of WWII. Two 500 lb bombs is a relatively light bomb load. Mission cruise speed varied (i.e. speeding up over most dangerous areas) but average cruise speed for the entire mission (including trip home without bombs) was 283 mph.

I'd be surprised if an A-36 could achieve an average cruise speed anywhere near that fast while carrying two 500 lb bombs. And that's not even a heavy bomb load. Ju-87Ds routinely carried 1,000 kg.

 

[oldcrowcv63]

I didn't remember correctly my own (35 years past) experience. It wasn't 50-60 knots it was an acceleration to over 100 knots faster than cruise! The lower speed was in training flights... Not a good example of train how you fight and fight how you train. But my poor memory is probably because I never bombed an actual target, only did training missions.

 

[tomo pauk]

A-36 was able to reach 225 miles with 2 x 500 lbs bombs. The max speed with 2 x 500 lbs bombs was 298 mph @ 5000 ft , WEP setting. The P-51* with 2 x 500 lbs bombs was to cruise at 220 mph. (data from 'Mustang' by Jeffrey Ethell)
So the A-36 was not cruising any better than that; if it uses military or WEP, it's obviously not cruising.

*clarification: P-51B/C/D

 

[oldcrowcv63]

The Mosquito was one of the fastest bombers of WWII. Two 500 lb bombs is a relatively light bomb load. Mission cruise speed varied (i.e. speeding up over most dangerous areas) but average cruise speed for the entire mission (including trip home without bombs) was 283 mph.

That's interesting. I always think its helpful to refer to actual operational examples whenever possible, even if it's not necessarily directly related.

A-36 was able to reach 225 miles with 2 x 500 lbs bombs. The max speed with 2 x 500 lbs bombs was 298 mph @ 5000 ft , WEP setting. The P-51* with 2 x 500 lbs bombs was to cruise at 220 mph. (data from 'Mustang' by Jeffrey Ethell)
So the A-36 was not cruising any better than that; if it uses military or WEP, it's obviously not cruising.

*clarification: P-51B/C/D

Thanks Tomo, I was hoping somebody would come back with an answer.

 

[DBII]

So no one will defend the little VAL? Sorry, I do not have any sources with me. I read that it was a terror early in the war and it destoried more tonnage than any other plane. Ok fo ahead and start throwing rocks at me

DBII