GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
My Teutonic/Saxon ancestry is also
(But it seems my Scottish ancestry is having a drink and not paying attention
)
Which Air Force would you have liked to fly with in WW2
- Thread starter B-17engineer
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(But it seems my Scottish ancestry is having a drink and not paying attention
)I have always been a bit confused by the ambiguous attitude towards the war that I have noticed in Germans of my own generation born in the (60's and 70's). On one hand they are anti Nazi and on the other hand they recent losing the war, they seem to feel cheated and especially annoyed about the part played by Britain in their defeat.
Written by a German Pastor.
First they came for the Communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Socialists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Socialist.
Then they came for me, and there was nobody left to speak up for me.
Written by a German Pastor.
First they came for the Communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Socialists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Socialist.
Then they came for me, and there was nobody left to speak up for me.
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My Teutonic/Saxon ancestry is also
(But it seems my Scottish ancestry is having a drink and not paying attention
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 4,022
- Jun 25, 2013
So if you were German and did not leave Germany and immigrate, you lacked sufficient morals?
Really? Seriously?
Really looking forward to this response...
Looking from 80 years in the future, yes. Looking from the vantage of 1938, it's probably a much more difficult decision. I find it very, very difficult not to feel that the governments of both hitler and stalin were deeply immoral institutions, and it's certain that the bases of the nazi ideology -- anti-semiticism and racism -- were morally indefensible.
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
As far as the politicians and thier boot lickers go, sure...but what about the poor bastard at home, working day to day, feeding his family and watching the events unfold in the papers...
At the beginning, the population was stirred by the prospect that thier nation would emerge prosperous from the ruins of WWI and national pride swept the citizens. It wasn't until they were already committed that the cold hard truth started to set in. By then, it was too late.
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 4,022
- Jun 25, 2013
I know that there was an active anti-nazi movement in Germany, at least from hitler's assumption of power, in the same way as there was a dissident movement in the USSR. As I said, it's much easier to make this sort of pronouncement over seventy years after the fact.
The govt. was an evil regime yes, but it did not show that in the beginning. Hitler was a New York Times man of the year. The country was in ruins and he gave them hope.
Millions of people living in a country are not lacking in morals by being born into a country. Were millions going to immigrate? Where would they go? Were the soldiers and citizens living in the US when the govt. and army were massacring native americans and pushing them off their lands lacking in morals?
Also a soldier fighting for his country does not make him lacking in morals, especially when the majority had no choice. In Hitlers regime, it was rather unhealthy to decline service in one form or another.
My Grandfather was in the Wehrmacht, so was my wife's. I can tell you they were not lacking in any morals any more than my American Grandfather who fought on the US side anf landed in Normandy. He was fighting to live another day, and get home to his family.
The vast majority of soldiers on all sides acted with dignity and honor...
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It hardly takes courage and honesty to admit the plainly obvious?
A colleague of mine who is German but works in the US told me a very humbling story about his father that illustrated to me that there is good and bad in all and that not all Germans actually wanted to fight.
His father was in the Wehrmacht from the start of the war and survived the whole war. When in Poland his father was instructed to be part of a firing squad that was tasked on this particular occasion to execute a group of Polish Jews. This wasn't what his father believed in (not being a Nazi supporter). So made a request to his superior to not take part. The officer turned to him and said (in short) "of course, I will allow you not to take part as i do not believe this right. However understand that you are lucky, I have no choice!". It was strange when he told me because it really wasn't what I expected to hear. I am not that nieve to think that the Germans were a bunch of barbarians but it showed to me that the actions of a few shouldn't be taken as representative of the masses.
Anyways reference the Poll in this thread. Would be interesting to see the nationality of the people of who voted for who.
Cheers Chris
A colleague of mine who is German but works in the US told me a very humbling story about his father that illustrated to me that there is good and bad in all and that not all Germans actually wanted to fight.
His father was in the Wehrmacht from the start of the war and survived the whole war. When in Poland his father was instructed to be part of a firing squad that was tasked on this particular occasion to execute a group of Polish Jews. This wasn't what his father believed in (not being a Nazi supporter). So made a request to his superior to not take part. The officer turned to him and said (in short) "of course, I will allow you not to take part as i do not believe this right. However understand that you are lucky, I have no choice!". It was strange when he told me because it really wasn't what I expected to hear. I am not that nieve to think that the Germans were a bunch of barbarians but it showed to me that the actions of a few shouldn't be taken as representative of the masses.
Anyways reference the Poll in this thread. Would be interesting to see the nationality of the people of who voted for who.
Cheers Chris
True, but they must deal with the consequences that their previous generations have left for them.
You could say the same for us. How do the elder and younger generation of where I live (Coventry) feel when they walk into a City Centre that was pretty much completely destroyed. No doubt that most will have lost somebody and we have what remains of the Catherdral as a constant reminder.
Our history - Coventry Cathedral
We were the "good guy's" but still can't escape the horrors even on our own soil in this present day.
Maybe it's personal because of where i live, but I know the Luftwaffe shaped the future of Coventry until this present day. Give us back out complete medieval city and we could start to forget. It's not a pretty site with housing around the city that was rushed up post war and still stands today. The City is scarred and we will certainly never forget the ruthless bombing of it. Check the word Coventrate and its meaning. coventrate - Wiktionary
The Russians, however. Different story.
Cheers Chris
You could say the same for us. How do the elder and younger generation of where I live (Coventry) feel when they walk into a City Centre that was pretty much completely destroyed. No doubt that most will have lost somebody and we have what remains of the Catherdral as a constant reminder.
Our history - Coventry Cathedral
We were the "good guy's" but still can't escape the horrors even on our own soil in this present day.
Maybe it's personal because of where i live, but I know the Luftwaffe shaped the future of Coventry until this present day. Give us back out complete medieval city and we could start to forget. It's not a pretty site with housing around the city that was rushed up post war and still stands today. The City is scarred and we will certainly never forget the ruthless bombing of it. Check the word Coventrate and its meaning. coventrate - Wiktionary
The Russians, however. Different story.
Cheers Chris
I have never been to Coventry city centre so I don't know what it looks like today, I realise it was flattened completely during the war so I can understand what you are saying as living in Southampton you see similar sights. I am quite familiar with Portsmouth and Plymouth both of which were bombed much more heavily than Southampton. I think the post war planners did a nice job in Plymouth, an average job in Southampton and a truly horrible one in Pompey, Pompey is not so bad now but used to regularly get voted as Britain's most ugly city, it also had Britain's most ugly building the Tricorn Centre. I hope nobody from Portsmouth has read this.
Alex .
Airman 1st Class
Shame they didn't flatten Wolverhampton Hate that place.
I would go for the RAF though, Mosquitos are one of my favourites and would have jumped at the chance. Or the Fleet Air Arm for a go in the Sea Fury!
Hate that place.I would go for the RAF though, Mosquitos are one of my favourites and would have jumped at the chance. Or the Fleet Air Arm for a go in the Sea Fury!
To be honest the Luftwaffe could make a change for the good now!
I work as a supplier to Jaguar Landrover and had to go to Southampton once to change a set of wheels on a Jag. I can see why it was such an attractive target for the Luftwaffe. Those docks are huge! I never got the chance to see the town centre as it was an in and out job.
I work as a supplier to Jaguar Landrover and had to go to Southampton once to change a set of wheels on a Jag. I can see why it was such an attractive target for the Luftwaffe. Those docks are huge! I never got the chance to see the town centre as it was an in and out job.
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 4,022
- Jun 25, 2013
In the book Hitler's Willing Executioners, a (flawed) history of German soldiers and their execution of racial policies in occupied Europe, it was reported that the soldiers were allowed to opt-out of murdering1 non-Jewish peoples not of the "master" race; they were not so allowed with regards to Jews. I suspect that the rigor with which this was enforced depended on the particular unit and the fervor of its officers and NCOs: one or two soldiers opting out of a unit are showing a great deal of courage. It is also true that the nazis found willing accomplices to implement its anti-Semitic (and anti-Rom and anti-what-have-you) policies in all the occupied countries, except maybe Denmark (sneaking all the Jews out of the country was brilliant and incredibly courageous).
---------------
1: Obviously, under nazi laws these were not murders. However, I think that everybody would agree that rounding up random civilians (or prisoners) and shooting them just because of their ethnicity or religion is murder. So where cases like the rounding up of and killing of civilians at Ardeatine Caves and the killing of everybody in Lidice.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
There were many examples of people who refused to bend to the will of the Nazi party like the Bulgarians, for example, who refused to turn over captured Allied aircrews to the Germans and resisted purging their population of "untermensch" all under the orders of King Boris.
It's easy for many people to sit back and point fingers and offer opinions, but the reality is, that as with the vast majority of militaries around the world, orders are to be obeyed. Defining the "enemy" depends on that soldier's leaders, who tell him who the enemy is. It's not up to the Landser or Dogface or Tommy to make that decision. And in some cases, objections to follow orders could result in harsh disclipline. An example would be the Red Army during Stalingrad where the penalty for retreat was instant death by the political squads who sat at the rear of the lines and shot anyone coming back.
It's easy for many people to sit back and point fingers and offer opinions, but the reality is, that as with the vast majority of militaries around the world, orders are to be obeyed. Defining the "enemy" depends on that soldier's leaders, who tell him who the enemy is. It's not up to the Landser or Dogface or Tommy to make that decision. And in some cases, objections to follow orders could result in harsh disclipline. An example would be the Red Army during Stalingrad where the penalty for retreat was instant death by the political squads who sat at the rear of the lines and shot anyone coming back.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
I your referring to statistics based on Antonios Fosteridis, I'd suggest reading up on that a little further before forming an opinion.
As far as this being relevant to the forum's favorite airforce, I'd say it's not...the thread is drifting quite a bit, actually.
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 4,022
- Jun 25, 2013
Many of the countries on the continent of Europe had very nationalistic governments, with explicitly xenophobic ideologies (iirc, there were some groups worse than the nazis) after WW1, and many of these actively persecuted minorities (in Bulgaria, the minorities were probably Turks and Greeks). That they continued these policies, and even worsened them when they occupied another country is not surprising.
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