Why American aces had lower scores than anybody else

[NTGray]

Any American kid who becomes interested in World War 2 fighter pilots quickly learns that Richard Bong was the American Ace of Aces, with 40 enemy planes to his credit. And that seems like an impressively large number, perched proudly above numbers like 38 (Tom McGuire), 34 (David McCampbell), and 28 (Francis Gabreski). But then our young lad will do some more research, and discover some numbers which look something like this (with some variation in the exact numbers attributed to some of the individuals):

Top fighter aces by nationality​
Country​	Pilot​	Score​
Britain	James Johnson	38​
United States	Richard Bong	40​
Soviet Union	Grigory Rechkalov	65​
Finland	Ilmari Juutilainen	94​
Japan	Tetsuzō Iwamoto	94​
Germany	Erich Hartmann	352​

It turns out that, among all the major nations involved in the war, America's greatest ace had the lowest score of them all, except for Britain. (But some say that another British ace had 50, but that has not been confirmed.)

Our lad might then wonder, Why were the American and British aces' scores so low compared to the rest? Were the German pilots that much better than anyone else?

Further digging, however, will lead to the discovery that pilots from different countries flew under very different conditions. Most notably, German, Japanese, and Soviet pilots were expected to fly until they died or the war ended. American and British pilots only served for a defined tour of duty and then were rotated home. Also, the American system included taking the best of the returning pilots and allowing them the opportunity to become trainers, thus imparting their hard-won wisdom to the new pilots coming up. Finally, some pilots operated in theaters where there were substantially more enemy planes in the air (a situation that is euphemistically described as "target-rich"). This was especially true on the Eastern Front in Europe.

In other words, there is more to those scores than meets the eye. And since there are still many things about flying conditions in those days that I don't know, I'm opening up a conversation about a comparison not just of pilot skill, but of training practices (both in details and in overall philosophy), as well as other topics that relate to how well (or poorly) a nation's pilots were treated. For example, the U.S. invested considerable equipment and manpower—including search aircraft and submarines—in rescuing downed American pilots in the Pacific. (A future President of the United States, George H.W. Bush, was a beneficiary of this program.) Japan had nothing comparable to it.

What else may have both contributed to the success of American (and British) pilots, while at the same time have kept their scores lower than if the system had been more like the German system?

 

[wlewisiii]

More highly skilled pilots overall because of the training system.

In addition, if you wanted to fly in combat during WWII, it did not pay to be too good during training. The finest pilot I ever knew never flew combat because they yanked him from his transition unit and made him a trainer. OTOH, I'm sure his wife and kids didn't mind. He would retire from the reserves without a single combat mission but many of the men he trained survived because of him.

 

[Milosh]

Not just pilots but other flight crew members such as my Dad who was a WAG who spent a good year with a training establishment before going overseas.

 

[Clayton Magnet]

Albert Ball was a WWI fighter pilot, not WWII.
The highest scoring British pilot of WWII was probably Johnny Johnson with 34 or 38, depending on what you read.
The highest scoring RAF pilot was probably Marmaduke Pattle, with 50 something kills. But nobody really knows, because he was killed fighting over Greece, and his records were not up to date

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Any American kid who becomes interested in World War 2 fighter pilots quickly learns that Richard Bong was the American Ace of Aces, with 40 enemy planes to his credit. And that seems like an impressively large number, perched proudly above numbers like 38 (Tom McGuire), 34 (David McCampbell), and 28 (Francis Gabreski). But then our young lad will do some more research, and discover some numbers which look something like this (with some variation in the exact numbers attributed to some of the individuals):

Top fighter aces by nationality​
Country​	Pilot​	Score​
America	Richard Bong	40​
Britain	Albert Ball	44​
Soviet Union	Grigory Rechkalov	65​
Finland	Ilmari Juutilainen	94​
Japan	Tetsuzō Iwamoto	94​
Germany	Erich Hartman	352​

It turns out that, among all the major nations involved in the war, America's greatest ace had the lowest score of them all. Our lad might then wonder, Why were the American aces' scores so low compared to the rest? Were the German pilots that much better than anyone else?

Further digging, however, will lead to the discovery that pilots from different countries flew under very different conditions. Most notably, German, Japanese, and Soviet pilots were expected to fly until they died or the war ended. American and British pilots only served for a defined tour of duty and then were rotated home. Also, the American system included taking the best of the returning pilots and allowing them the opportunity to become trainers, thus imparted their hard-won wisdom to the new pilots coming up. Finally, some pilots operated in theaters were there were substantially more enemy planes in the air (a situation that is euphemistically described as "target-rich"). This was especially true on the Eastern Front in Europe.

In other words, there is more to those scores than meets the eye. And since there are still many things about flying conditions in those days that I don't know, I'm opening up a conversation about a comparison not just of pilot skill, but of training practices (both in details and in overall philosophy), as well as other topics that relate to how well (or poorly) a nation's pilots were treated. For example, the U.S. invested considerable equipment and manpower—including search aircraft and submarines—in rescuing downed American pilots in the Pacific. (A future President of the United States, George H.W. Bush, was a beneficiary of this program.) Japan had nothing comparable to it.

What else may have both contributed to the success of American (and British) pilots, while at the same time have kept their scores lower than if the system had been more like the German system?

This has beat to death over the years in so many discussions -

Basically US pilots flew a set amount of missions. Once completed they were rotated stateside. Some US pilots may have flown 2 or 3 tours but still rotated home.

Axis pilots flew until killed, wounded or captured.

I believe if you look into some US aces and the pace of their confirmed kills, they were on pace with many Axis pilots. "Butcher Bob" Hansen downed 20 aircraft in the span of 13 days during six missions. In under a month he downed 25 aircraft.

Lastly you had the matter of overclaims, and research into Erich Hartman kills show that he his totals may be off by over 40%!!!

 

[NTGray]

Albert Ball was a WWI fighter pilot, not WWII.
The highest scoring British pilot of WWII was probably Johnny Johnson with 34 or 38, depending on what you read.
The highest scoring RAF pilot was probably Marmaduke Pattle, with 50 something kills. But nobody really knows, because he was killed fighting over Greece, and his records were not up to date

Well, that's embarrassing.
Fixed. (Possibly)

 

[NTGray]

This has been beat to death over the years in so many discussions -

I thought it might have been, but when I searched before posting I couldn't find anything recent. Not with the search terms I used, anyway. Besides, I realize that there are some denizens of this board who could teach a graduate level class on almost any topic that comes up here, but there are always the new (or new-ish) people who are still finding out stuff. That would include me; I find that even on topics that I think I know a little bit about, I can count on discovering things I don't know before. That's why it's so much fun being here, and why I thought I would give this topic a whirl.

 

[pbehn]

I thought it might have been, but when I searched before posting I couldn't find anything recent. Not with the search terms I used, anyway. Besides, I realize that there are some denizens of this board who could teach a graduate level class on almost any topic that comes up here, but there are always the new (or new-ish) people who are still finding out stuff. That would include me; I find that even on topics that I think I know a little bit about, I can count on discovering things I don't know before. That's why it's so much fun being here, and why I thought I would give this topic a whirl.

There is also the not very minor issue of Germany invading Poland in Sept 1939 but not declaring war on the USA until Dec 1941.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I thought it might have been, but when I searched before posting I couldn't find anything recent. Not with the search terms I used, anyway. Besides, I realize that there are some denizens of this board who could teach a graduate level class on almost any topic that comes up here, but there are always the new (or new-ish) people who are still finding out stuff. That would include me; I find that even on topics that I think I know a little bit about, I can count on discovering things I don't know before. That's why it's so much fun being here, and why I thought I would give this topic a whirl.

To fully understand this, IMO just don't look at an ace's credited victories - look at how many missions it took the individual to achieve their scores. Also consider where they were operating, the old term "target rich environment" comes into play. Lastly consider over-claims which happened on all sides for a number of reasons. There have been some researchers who have tried to validate many Luftwaffe claims, Nick Hector has done a pretty good job of this and has a FB site on this subject. From Nick's site about Erich Hartman:

Recent Claims research by Nick Hector and several other respected researchers has revealed that Hartmann had a horrendous actual claim % accuracy....
Out of 72 victory claims listed below, only 32 actual claims resulted in a confirmed destroyed aircraft, with 40 claims being registered as overclaims...
This gives Hartmann a terrible claiming accuracy of 44.4%. The research is based off of official Soviet TsAMO reports from the historical achives, which was only opened up in the early 90's.

German archives are themselves contradictory. Indeed only 289 of Hartmann's 'victories' were in fact 'officially confirmed' before the German claims system broke down in early 1945. Secondly, only 307 of his supposed claims had even been 'officially' filed before the end of the war..

I've seen some other researchers claim that Hartman actually had about 140 verified kills, one researcher claims he had no more than 70! He flew over 1400 missions!

https://www.facebook.com/search/top?q=german%20claims

Then look at someone like Canada's Beurling - 31 kills, most of them over Malta, (27 kills in 14 days) Saw combat at Malta from June to October, 1942.

 

[GrauGeist]

Aside from the fact that the U.S. entered the war two years after it began in Europe and four years after it got started in earnest in the Pacific, the U.S. also had several factors that put it's total Ace count at under 1,300 (all branches).
Aside from being late to the party, American doctrine saw rotation of pilots after a periodnof time.
Also, with a few exceptions, American pilots didn't fly as many missions per day as opposed to their Axis counterparts.
There was also the factor of numerical superiority in the later years of the war.

Aces account for five or more victories, true, but if you have hundreds of pilots scoring two, three or four against the enemy, it's like death by a thousand paper cuts.

 

[Jagdflieger]

Many valid reasons have already been stated.

Mostly it comes down to aircraft/pilot numbers, The Allied/Axis ratio in regards to fighter-aircraft was around 4 : 1 in the Mediterranean theater right down to 7:1 and more n the European theater from 1944 onward. Even if both parties pilots and aircraft's would be evenly matched - 4 Allied pilots would have to share into a single kill in the Med and 7 Allied would have to share into a single kill in the European theater. So pretty hard for an Allied pilot to achieve higher scores. Unless they would have had an attribution kill system such as
the Luftwaffe was using.
If you look at the overall kill stats - I am pretty sure that the Allies from 1943 onward had achived a far higher number in total kills then the Luftwaffe.

In order to please the Luftwaffe leadership and the Nazi propaganda machine (generating Aces) e.g. during the beginning of the Bob - there was a huge run and squabble amongst certain Luftwaffe pilots to be on the flight-board, being decided upon by the respective Wing and squadron leaders. Then add some "kill score errors" to these Halsschmerzen "sore throat" pilots ( knights-cross aspirants) and there you have your Ace or Aces.
Those Luftwaffe pilots not being on the flight-board were maybe happy about having survived another day - but at the same time did not get the necessary or improved skill-set under the watchful eyes and guidance of experienced Luftwaffe pilots. An issue for which the Luftwaffe later-on payed dearly.

Regards
Jagdflieger

 

[GregP]

Many valid reasons have already been stated.

Mostly it comes down to aircraft/pilot numbers, The Allied/Axis ratio in regards to fighter-aircraft was around 4 : 1 in the Mediterranean theater right down to 7:1 and more n the European theater from 1944 onward. Even if both parties pilots and aircraft's would be evenly matched - 4 Allied pilots would have to share into a single kill in the Med and 7 Allied would have to share into a single kill in the European theater. So pretty hard for an Allied pilot to achieve higher scores. Unless they would have had an attribution kill system such as
the Luftwaffe was using.
If you look at the overall kill stats - I am pretty sure that the Allies from 1943 onward had achived a far higher number in total kills then the Luftwaffe.

In order to please the Luftwaffe leadership and the Nazi propaganda machine (generating Aces) e.g. during the beginning of the Bob - there was a huge run and squabble amongst certain Luftwaffe pilots to be on the flight-board, being decided upon by the respective Wing and squadron leaders. Then add some "kill score errors" to these Halsschmerzen "sore throat" pilots ( knights-cross aspirants) and there you have your Ace or Aces.
Those Luftwaffe pilots not being on the flight-board were maybe happy about having survived another day - but at the same time did not get the necessary or improved skill-set under the watchful eyes and guidance of experienced Luftwaffe pilots. An issue for which the Luftwaffe later-on payed dearly.

Regards
Jagdflieger

I have to disagree here with Jagdflieger, at least on one point. The Luftwaffe had far fewer aircraft flying from 1943 onward than the Allies did, and the Allies didn't shoot down all the German aircraft they encountered. So, they'd naturally almost HAVE to have shot down fewer aircraft than the Germans, who were operating in the famous "target-rich environment" almost everywhere they flew did.

I can't comment personally on Hartmann's supposed overclaiming, but I am VERY impressed with the fact that he never lost a wingman. That he could fly the combat he flew (1.404 missions, 850 combat missions, 352 victories awarded, meaning 2.41 combat missions per victory (189 LaGG [not La-5s], 81 P-39, 25 Yak-9. etc., I have the list) without losing a wingman speaks volumes for his sense of when to attack and when not to, and his sense of situational awareness.

 

[Jagdflieger]

I have to disagree here with Jagdflieger, at least on one point. The Luftwaffe had far fewer aircraft flying from 1943 onward than the Allies did, and the Allies didn't shoot down all the German aircraft they encountered. So, they'd naturally almost HAVE to have shot down fewer aircraft than the Germans, who were operating in the famous "target-rich environment" almost everywhere they flew did.

I had stated - e.g. 4 Allies aircrafts to 1 luftwaffe aircraft. I had also stated that under the pretext of both parties haveing the same good aircraft and pilots. Which however wasn't the real case at all. So if e.g. 1 low trained Luftwaffe pilot is aware that 4 allied aircraft's are on approach, then naturally he would try to make a run for it as well - reducing the chances for an Allied pilot to score a kill even further. So where is the disagreement?

I can't comment personadly on Hartmann's supposed overclaiming, but I am VERY impressed with the fact that he never lost a wingman. That he could fly the combat he flew (1.404 missions, 850 combat missions, 352 victories awarded, meaning 2.41 combat missions per victory (189 LaGG [not La-5s], 81 P-39, 25 Yak-9. etc., I have the list) without losing a wingman speaks volumes for his sense of when to attack and when not to, and his sense of situational awareness.

Fully agree

Regards
Jagdflieger

 

[Snautzer01]

I had stated - e.g. 4 Allies aircrafts to 1 luftwaffe aircraft. I had also stated that under the pretext of both parties haveing the same good aircraft and pilots. Which however wasn't the real case at all. So if e.g. 1 low trained Luftwaffe pilot is aware that 4 allied aircraft's are on approach, then naturally he would try to make a run for it as well - reducing the chances for an Allied pilot to score a kill even further. So where is the disagreement?

Fully agree

Regards
Jagdflieger

I posted a thead about the scores of Hartmann. Comparing soviet files agains claims. Not in his favour to say the least.

 

[drgondog]

The key factors for a good fighter pilot are a.) have a decent fighter to fly - performance wise, b.) a target rich environment and c.) survive

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I can't comment personally on Hartmann's supposed overclaiming, but I am VERY impressed with the fact that he never lost a wingman. That he could fly the combat he flew (1.404 missions, 850 combat missions, 352 victories awarded, meaning 2.41 combat missions per victory (189 LaGG [not La-5s], 81 P-39, 25 Yak-9. etc., I have the list) without losing a wingman speaks volumes for his sense of when to attack and when not to, and his sense of situational awareness.

Greg - I suggest some NEW research as some of Hartman's feats have been debunked. As mentioned, a very detailed analysis has been done by Nick Hector to a segment of his claims and was found to be 44% overclaimed, and as mentioned, only 307 of his supposed claims had even been 'officially' filed before the end of the war. The fact that he never lost a wing man or was shot down by another fighter is suspect based on Soviet records released in 1991. At first I had a hard time believing this but the more I looked into this and the number of people coming up with the same conclusions, I have to believe their research. This was from the FB site I posted, D. Case is the author and I know he got most of his data from Nick. Sorry for the length of this article, but it does show the detail of research that went into it. I welcome comments, bold points are from me...

Erich Alfred Hartmann (19 April 1922 – 20 September 1993), nicknamed "Bubi" ("The Kid") by his German comrades, was a German fighter pilot during World War II and assumed to be the most successful fighter ace in the history of aerial warfare.

He flew 1,404 combat missions and participated in aerial combat on 825 separate occasions. He claimed, and was credited with, shooting down 352 Allied aircraft — 350 Soviet and 2 American—while serving with the Luftwaffe.

Recent Claims research by Nick Hector and several other respected researchers has revealed that Hartmann had a horrendous actual claim % accuracy....

Out of 72 victory claims listed below, only 32 actual claims resulted in a confirmed destroyed aircraft, with 40 claims being registered as overclaims...

This gives Hartmann a terrible claiming accuracy of 44.4%.

The research is based off of official Soviet TsAMO reports from the historical achives, which was only opened up in the early 90's.

During the course of his career, Hartmann was forced to crash-land his fighter 14 times due to damage received from parts of enemy aircraft he had just shot down or mechanical failure.

On 20 August 1943, Hartmann himself was shot down: according to his account (in Toliver), he dispatched two Il-2s before being hit by anti-aircraft fire. He managed to belly-land and was captured for a short period of time (later he evaded).

In fact, author Khazanov was able to determine, that according to Soviet records, what Hartmann attacked was a group of Shturmoviks of the 232 ShAP.

One of the Il-2 pilots, Leytenat Pavel Evdokimov, saw a "Messer" jump his comrade V. Ermakov, who , firing at close range managed to put a 20-mm burst into the Bf.109, which performed a belly-landing - this was Hartmann's Bf109G-6.

No Il-2 were lost by 232 ShAP that day, although two were damaged.

Once again, Hartmann's "kills" were overclaims (even when in this case both were in good faith).

And he was not downed by flak, but by Shturmovik pilot Pavel Evdokimov.

German archives are themselves contradictory. Indeed only 289 of Hartmann's 'victories' were in fact 'officially confirmed' before the German claims sytem broke down in early 1945. Secondly, only 307 of his supposed claims had even been 'officially' filed before the end of the war..

Khazanov conceeds that indeed Hartmann was a dangerous opponent, crediting him with at least two victories against Soviet aces: on 16.10.1943 he shot down the La-5 of Starshiy Leytenant Ivan Nikitovich Sytov (30 victories, 5 GIAP), and on 1.03.1945 the Yak-9 of Kapitan Sergey Ivanovich Lazarev (728 IAP, 256 IAD), but not before Lazarev shot down the Bf109G-14 of Hartmann's wingman G. Kapito (Lazarev's victory No.26)..."

Hartmann began his military training on 1 October 1940 at the 10th Flying Regiment in Neukuhren. On 1 March 1941, he progressed to the Luftkriegsschule 2 (Air War School 2) in Berlin-Gatow, making his first flight with an instructor four days later, followed in just under three weeks by his first solo flight.

He completed his basic flying training in October 1941 and began advanced flight training at pre-fighter school 2 in Lachen-Speyerdorf on 1 November 1941. There, Hartmann learned combat techniques and gunnery skills.

His advanced pilot training was completed on 31 January 1942, and, between 1 March 1942 and 20 August 1942, he learned to fly the Messerschmitt Bf 109 at the Jagdfliegerschule 2 (Fighter Pilot School 2) in Zerbst/Anhalt.

Hartmann was assigned to III./JG 52, led by Gruppenkommandeur Major Hubertus von Bonin, and placed under the experienced Oberfeldwebel Edmund "Paule" Roßmann, although he also flew with such experienced pilots as Alfred Grislawski, Hans Dammers and Josef Zwernemann.

Hartmann flew his first combat mission on 14 October 1942 as Roßmann's wingman. When they encountered 10 enemy aircraft below, Hartmann, obsessed by the idea of scoring his first success, opened full throttle and became separated from Roßmann. He engaged an enemy fighter, but failed to score any hits and nearly collided with it instead. He then ran for cover in low cloud, and his mission subsequently ended with a crash landing after his aircraft ran out of fuel.

Hartmann had violated almost every rule of air-to-air combat, and von Bonin sentenced him to three days of working with the ground crew.

In Hartmann's words:

"Well, Rossmann and I were in our flight, and Rossmann radioed that he spotted ten enemy aircraft below us. We were at 12,000 feet and the enemy was far below us. I could see nothing but followed Rossmann down, then we came on them. I knew that I had to get my first kill, so I went full throttle and left Rossmann to shoot at a plane. My shots missed and I almost collided into him and had to pull up.

Suddenly I was surrounded by the Soviets and I headed for low cloud cover to escape. All along Rossmann kept talking to me, and I had a low fuel warning.

Then the engine went dead and I bellied in, destroying my fighter. I knew I was in trouble. I had violated every commandment a fighter pilot lives by, and I expected to be thrown out."

Twenty-two days later, Hartmann claimed his first kill, an Ilyushin Il-2 Sturmovik of the 7th Guards Ground Attack Aviation Regiment.

Claim Verification Research by Nick Hector

No. 1,

5.11.42/1205

IL-2 Sturmovik

PQ 44 793, Digora (Caucasus) @ 400m

7 GShAP, 4 VA

We know that Grislawski shot down Mladshiy Leytenant Fyodor Artyomov, KIA and Serzhant Vladimir Zangiyev, bellylanded safely POW (returned)

Hartmann's claim does not seem to match any of the known losses in the engagement. Nor does Eberhard Fritz's claim

Hartmann on how he met Walter Krupinski:

"I was being addressed by my new Wing Commander (Hrabak) when a fighter came in smoking, and suddenly landed, flipped over and exploded. We knew the pilot was dead. One of the men said that 'it is Krupinski', and out of the blinding smoke this man walked out of the wreckage with a singed uniform, but no other damage.

He was smiling and complained about the flak over the Caucasus, but without any real surprise on his face. This was my first meeting with "The Count."

Hartmann makes his 2nd claim on 27 January 1943, when he engages Soviet aircraft over Armavir and shoots down a Mig-1 fighter.

No 2,

27.1.43/1130

MiG-1

Armavir (PQ 15112) @ 2500m

Possibly an aircraft of 7 IAP-ChF, but no further substantiation than that so far....

Hartmann claims his third victory on 9 February 1943, over a Yak-1 fighter

No.3,

9.2.43/1020

Yak-1 (Misidentified as a "LaGG-3")

Slawjanskaja (PQ 86722) @ 1000m

66 IAP. Mayor Barey Sayfutdinov returned safely, St.Lt. Ilya Vladimirovich Khludenev and Serzhant Grigoriy Kovalyov both KIA. Ml.Lt. Leonid Arestov's badly damaged and bellylanded 5km W of own base

...Friese and Lohberg accounted for the other losses.

No.4,

10.2.43/0615

DB-7 Boston

Slawjanskaja (PQ 86671) @ 3200m

63 BAP, 132 BAD, 5 VA.Crew of St. Serzhant Isatov. Navigator of the crew, Andrei Yakovlevich Smolyar baled out POW, returned 1945

No. 7,

P-39 on 15.4.43/1533 over Taman: 45 IAP, either 41-38451 of Starishiy Leytenant M Petrov or 42-4606 of Serzhant Bezbabnov (but see Waldemar Eyrich's claim). Both KIA

No.16,

U-2 on 15.5.43/1210 over Titarovskaya station (Taman) (PQ 86544) @ low altitude: HQ 278 IAD. Leytenant Vladimir Ivanovich Ershov (senior pilot)[KIA] 274 IAP (3 IAK) and passenger Ml.Lt. Evgeniy Ivanovich Kryukov [MIA] 43 IAP (3 IAK)

On 23 May 1943, he claimed his 17th victory, but two days later, Hartmann force-landed his Bf 109 G-4 "White 2" (W.Nr. 14 997) after colliding with a LaGG-3 fighter.

After this incident he was given leave to rest and recuperate, returning to combat duty by the end of June.

On 25 May 1943, he shot down a Lavochkin La-5, before colliding with another Soviet fighter.

However, he retained control of his damaged aircraft.

On 5 July 1943, Hartmann claimed FOUR victories and seemingly finds his groove.

wo days later, on 7 July, Hartmann's personal plane, decorated with a large Roman numeral 'I' and the name Usch in a red heart (Usch Paetch was his fiancee), took part in one of the largeest dogfights that took place during the Battle of Kursk.

He claimed to have shot down SEVEN enemy aircraft throughout the day to record his 22nd through 28th victories.

No. 22,

IL-2 on 7.7.43/0350: 1 ShAK. Losses in this mission include Kpt. Stepan Poshivalnikov of 800 ShAP, already damaged by flak, belly-landed in German territory but rescued by a mate (may have been the only loss in this engagement)

No. 23,

IL-2 on 7.7.43/0352: 1 ShAK. Losses in this mission include Kpt. Stepan Poshivalnikov of 800 ShAP, already damaged by flak, belly-landed in German territory but rescued by a mate (may have been the only loss in this engagement)

On 8 July 1943, he claimed another FOUR Russian victories.

No. 29,

LaGG on 8.7.43/0905 over Ugrim (PQ 61223) @ 2500m: 40 GIAP, 8 GIAD. Mayor Moisey Tokarev KIA

No. 30:

LaGG on 8.7.43/0910 over Ugrim (PQ 61221) @ 2500m: 40 GIAP, 8 GIAD. Overclaiming, only one loss: Mayor Moisey Tokarev KIA

No. 31,

Yak-1 on 8.7.43/1805 over Ugrim (PQ 62872) @ 2500m: Soviet report mentions the loss of three Yak-1s to fighters around this time (very likely legitimate victory therefore)

No. 32,

Yak-1 on 8.7.43/1825 over Ugrim (PQ 61134) @ 1000m: Soviet report mentions the loss of three Yak-1s (very likely legitimate victory therefore)

On 9 July 1943, he claimed four more victories.

On 16 July 1943, in a large furball, he claims another LaGG.

No. 39, "LaGG" on 16.7.43/1415 over PQ 54661 @ 1500m: 18 GIAP and Normandie Niemen Eskadrilya. 18 GIAP lost Serzhant Ivan Stolyarov while Normandie Niemen lost Kpt. Albert Littolff (possibly by Hartmann), Lt. Noel Castelain and M.Lt. Adrien Bernavon. All KIA

The German offensive was terminated on 16 July 1943, by which time Hartmann had accounted for 39 Soviet aircraft.

At the start of August 1943, his tally stood at 42, but Hartmann's tally had more than doubled by the end of the month, including five on 1 August (43-47), 4 August (52-56), 5 August (57-61), 7 August (63-67), 8 August (68-71) and 9 August (72-75).

On 1 August 1943, Hartmann FINALLY became an Ace-in-a-Day by claiming FIVE victories in a single days worth of combat missions.

Another four victories followed on 3 August, to bring his total to 51 credits.

Hartmann scored another FIVE more victories on the 4th of August, 1943.

No. 52,

Yak-7B on 4.8.43/1019 over Warwarowka/Tomarowka (PQ 35 Ost 61391) @ 3500m: 728 IAP, 265 IAD. At least one loss: Ml. Lt. Ivan Emelyanovich Marya KIA

No. 53,

Yak-7B on 4.8.43/1030 over Warwarowka/Tomarowka (PQ 35 Ost 61331) @ 2000m: 728 IAP, 265 IAD. POSSIBLE OVERCLAIM, At least one loss: Ml. Lt. Ivan Emelyanovich Marya KIA

Another FIVE Russian aircraft were claimed destroyed on the 5 August 1943, and a single victory claim on the 6th of August.

And a FURTHER FIVE victories were scored on 7 August 1943.

On 8 and 9 August, he claimed another FOUR Soviet fighters.

No. 78:

La-5 on 15.8.43/1810 La-5 over Peretschepino (PQ 70762) (Sukhaya Kamenka) @ 3000m. No.3810123 of 5 GIAP, 207 IAD, 17 VA, Lt. Samoilenko safe. Plane damaged in combat with Bf109s, crashed due to lack of fuel and written off

Hartmann's last claims for the month of August 1943, and Hartmanns' first moment of enemy captivity, came on the 20th day, when he claimed 2 x IL-2s for his 89th and 90th victory.

No. 89:

IL-2 on 20.8.43/0607 over Kutelnikowo (PQ 88263) @ 50m: Apparently from 232 ShAP, 7 ShAK. Overclaiming, no losses but two were damaged.

No. 90:

IL-2 on 20.8.43/0608 over Kutelnikowo (PQ 88263) @ 50m: Apparently from 232 ShAP, 7 ShAK. Overclaiming, no losses but two were damaged

On 20 August 1943, Hartmann himself was shot down: according to his account (in Toliver), he dispatched two Il-2s before being hit by anti-aircraft fire. He managed to belly-land and was captured for a short period of time (later he evaded).

In fact, author Khazanov was able to determine, that according to Soviet records, what Hartmann attacked was a group of Shturmoviks of the 232 ShAP.

One of the Il-2 pilots, Leytenat Pavel Evdokimov, saw a "Messer" jump his comrade V. Ermakov, who , firing at close range managed to put a 20-mm burst into the Bf.109, which performed a belly-landing - this was Hartmann's Bf109G-6.

No Il-2 were lost by 232 ShAP that day, although two were damaged.

Once again, Hartmann's "kills" were overclaims (even when in this case both were in good faith).

And he was not downed by flak, but by Shturmovik pilot Pavel Evdokimov.

In combat with Il-2s, his Bf109G was supposedly damaged by debris from his second claim and he was forced to land behind Soviet lines. This is in fact not true.

The flight of eight German fighters engaged a mass of Soviet Yakovlev Yak-9 and Lavochkin La-5 fighter aircraft that were protecting Il-2 Sturmoviks on a ground-attack mission.

He was captured by arriving Russian forces. Feigning injury, he managed to decoy his captors into not keeping a close watch on him and was able to escape and returned to his unit after two days.

The next month, he was appointed Staffelkapitän of 9./JG 52.

No. 94,

"LaGG" on 18.9.43/1355 over Zaporozhe (PQ 68392) @ 5000m: Were these the three out of four Yaks from 812 IAP lost in one engagement? Ml.Lt. Petr Ivanovich Kondyakov, Ml.Lt. Anatoliy Sergeevich Rusakov and Serzhant Mikhail Vasilievich Belous all failed to return

No. 95,

"LaGG" on 18.9.43/1355 over Zaporozhe (PQ 68392) @ 4000m: Were these the three out of four Yaks from 812 IAP lost in one engagement? Ml.Lt. Petr Ivanovich Kondyakov, Ml.Lt. Anatoliy Sergeevich Rusakov and Serzhant Mikhail Vasilievich Belous all failed to return

On 9 September 1943, he shoots down his 96th aircraft, 4 short of the Century Mark.

No. 96,

"LaGG" on 19.9.43/1440 over PQ 58614 @ 1200m: Likely a Yak of 812 IAP. Lt Georgiy Pavlovich Churakov KIA (came down Andreyevka, landed safely but found dead in his aircraft by Soviet troops the following day. Best match by location, timing a little out)

On 20 September 1943, Hartmann was credited with his 100th aerial victory—he claimed four this day to end it on 101.

was the 54th Luftwaffe pilot to achieve the century mark.

Nos. 98-100,

2 x LaGGs and a P-39 on 20.9.43: 288 IAD, 17 VA lost at least one Yak-7 this date. Possible overclaimed

Nos. 106 & 107,

2 x P-39s on 26.9.43: 9 GIAD (16, 100 and 104 GIAPs), 8 VA. Misidentification or overclaiming, no losses this day

In October 1943, Hartmann claimed another 33 aerial victories.

On 2 October, he shoots down his 120th enemy.

No. 120,

P-39 on 2.10.43/1140 over Novo Zaporozhe (PQ 58 581) @ 5000m: possibly Podpolkovnik (?) Arkadiy F Kovachevich of 9 GIAP. Baled out near Melitopol and survived

On 12 October 1943, Hartmann accounted for another FOUR victories.

He achieved a triple victories on the 14th, 15th and 20th of October 1943, and double claims on the 24th, 25th and 26th of October.

Nos. 145 and 146.

2 x P-39s on 26.10.43, Novo Zaporozhe sector. 9 GIAP. Overclaiming, Kapitan Ivan Korolev returned safely with damage

On 29 October 1943, he was awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross (Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes), at which point his tally stood at 148 confirmed victories.

On 6 December he was awarded the Deutsches Kreuz in Gold.

By the end of the year, 1943, his total had risen to 159 victories.

After the New Year, on 8 January 1944, he claims a triple victory over 69 GIAP Aircobras.

Nos. 163-165,

3 x P-39s on 8.1.44: 5 VA, including 7 IAK (205 and 304 IAD). These claims are believed to be against 69 GIAP, 304 IAD. Starshiy Leytenant Belyaev damaged and returned safely (three bullet holes) and one other damaged and bellylanded



In the first two months of 1944, Hartmann claimed over 50 Soviet aircraft destroyed.

This included 25 claims in January 1944.

No. 192,

P-39 on 4.2.44/1140: 129 GIAP. St.Lt. Bekashonk and his wingman (Ml.Lt. Koshel'kov). Overclaiming, no actual loss

On 26 February 1944, he claimed TEN fighters shot down, all of them Soviet-flown P-39s.

In doing so, he passed the Double Century Mark.

No. 193,

P-39 on 26.2.44/0908: 129 GIAP. Ml.Lt. Leontiya Zadiraki baled out and returned safely. legit loss 1.

No. 194,

P-39 on 26.2.44/0916: 205 IAD or 304 IAD. Overclaiming, no other losses at this time.

No. 195-199,

5 x P-39s on 26.2.44: 438 IAP. Three P-39s lost from a formation of four: Starshiy Leytenant Rybakov baled out safely, Starshiy Leytenant Nikolay Arsenovich Zinchenko (HSU) KIA and Leytenant Mamin also baled out. Ml.Lt. Demchenko's P-39 was slightly damaged and Ml.Lt. Motuzko's was sent to PARM for major repairs after bellylanding 12km S of Kirovograd). 3 legit losses, 2 overclaims.

Nos. 200 & 201,

2 x P-39s on 26.2.44: 438 IAP. These were likely the P-39 of Leytenant Lusto, only damaged, or another claim for Vodolazhskiy (also claimed by Rall and Bachnick) Overclaiming.

No. 202:

438 IAP P-39 on 26.2.44/1440. This was likely Leytenant Oleynikov, known to have baled out safely 10 minutes after Vodolazhskiy did. legit claim.

Days actual combat losses were: (6 confirmed, 4 overclaims)

At the beginning of March 1944, his total stood at 202 victories.

In March 1944, Hartmann, Gerhard Barkhorn, Walter Krupinski and Johannes Wiese were summoned to Adolf Hitler's Berghof in Berchtesgaden.

Barkhorn was to be honoured with the Swords, while Hartmann, Krupinski and Wiese were to receive the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves (Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes mit Eichenlaub).

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Part II

On the train, all four of them got drunk on cognac and champagne.

In April and May 1944, 9./JG 52 resisted the Soviet Crimean Offensive. In April Hartmann claimed five victories.

On 5 May 1944, Hartmann claims SIX LAGG's shot down.

No. 212-217,

6 x LaGGs on 5.5.44: One of these may have been Leytenant Ivanov of 402 IAP, 265 IAD. KIA this date, attributed to Lipfert or Hartmann

On the 6th of May 1944, Hartmann claimed ANOTHER 4 victories.

On 8 May 1944, JG 52 fled the region as the German defence collapsed. Hartmann flew out with two mechanics crammed into the fuselage of his Bf 109.

He had 223 victories to his credit at the time

On 21 May 1944, Hartmann engaged United States Army Air Forces aircraft in Reichsverteidigung for the first time in defence of the Ploiești oilfields.

While flying "top cover" for another Schwarm, Hartmann attacked a flight of four P-51s over Bucharest, Romania, supposedly claiming he downed two of them, while the other two P-51s also supposedly fell victim to his fellow pilots.

During May 1944, Hartmann filed claim numbers 208 to 231.

* 29.05.1944: During the Soviet air strike against the Romanian airbase of Novela, Erich Hartmann claimed three "LaGG-7s" (La-5s) shot down. In fact, the Soviet 5 VA did suffer losses - three Il-2, but the 302 IAD, which provided escort for the attack and was equipped with the La-5FN, did not suffer any losses ..

On 1 June 1944, Hartmann ALLEGEDLY shot down FOUR P-51 Mustangs in a single mission over the Ploieşti oil fields.

On 4 June 1944, Hartmann and his wingman Birkner were bounced by two free hunting Russian P-39 Aircobras of the 16 GIAP, who were promptly shot down and claimed by Hartmann.

Nos 249 & 250,

P-39s on 4.6.44: During their 4th sortie, Hartmann and Birkner were jumped by 2 Aircobras, Hartmann claimed both of them shot down.

They were flown by Mayor B. B. Gakhaet and Leytenant Nikolay L. Trofimov of the famous 16 GIAP. Both returned home unscathed. Overclaims

* 4.06.1944: on this date during the fourth sortie of the day, Hartmann and his wingman Birkner were jumped by two Airacobras, with Hartmann shooting down both P-39s. Khazanov determined that they would have been the Airacobras flown by Mayor B. B. Gakhaet and Leytenant Nikolay L. Trofimov of the famous 16 GIAP. Both Airacobras returned home "..without a scratch! "

On 24 June 1944, Hartmann claimed a 15th USAAF P-51 Mustang fighter as his 264th victory.

No. 264,

P-51C-5-NT Mustang on 24.6.44/0950: Day's only loss was 42-103599/42 of 318th FS, 325th FG. Joseph W Harper MIA (Diekmann and Birkner claimed as well) Overclaim.

Later that month, during his fifth combat with American pilots, he claimed to have shot down two more P-51s before being forced to bail out, when he ran his Messerschmitt 109 out of fuel.

llegedly, while he was hanging in his parachute, the P-51s circled above him, and Hartmann wondered if they would take this opportunity to kill him.

One of the P-51Bs, flown by Lt. Robert J. Goebel of the 308th Squadron, 31st Fighter Group, broke away and headed straight for him.

Goebel was making a camera pass to record the bailout and banked away from him only at the last moment, waving at Hartmann as he went by.

* 4.07.1944: Hartmann claimed three Il-2s north of Yassy, which were attacking German artillery positions. The formation attacked by Hartmann were 12 Il-2s of the 2 ShAK led by Leytenant Frolov, but they lost only one Shturmovik, which made a belly-landing in Soviet-held territory.

On 17 August 1944, Hartmann became the top scoring fighter ace, surpassing fellow JG 52 pilot Gerhard Barkhorn, with his 274th victory.

On 23 August 1944, Hartmann claimed EIGHT victories in three combat missions, ANOTHER Ace-in-a-Day achievement, bringing his score up to 290 victories.

He passed the 300-mark on 24 August 1944, a day on which he shot down 11 aircraft in two combat missions, representing his greatest ever victories-per-day ratio (a double-ace-in-a-day) and bringing the number of aerial victories to an UNPRECEDENTED 301.

Nos. 298, 299 & 300,

3 x P-39s on 24.8.44: 9 GIAD. Very likely overclaiming, only one loss this date: an aircraft that was separated from its parent formation, pilot MIA

* 24.08.1944: on this day Hartmann claimed his victories Nos. 299 to 303 over the Soviet beachhead of Sandomierz across the Vistula river - all four were P-39s. The only unit equipped with Aircobras providing cover to Sandomierz were from the elite 9 GIAD led by Polkovnik Aleksandr Pokryshkin - they sustained no losses in air combat that day. One Soviet P-39 pilot was reported missing after becoming separated from his comrades, "...who could have been downed by Hartmann. But at most Hartmann could score only one victory that day, never four...."

Hartmann finally earns the Diamonds on 25 August 1944 for 300 confirmed victories as Oberleutnant and Staffelkapitän of 9./Jagdgeschwader 52.

Hartmann becomes one of only 27 German soldiers in World War II to receive the Diamonds to his Knight's Cross.

After receiving the Diamonds, he was immediately grounded by Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring, who was fearful of the effect on German morale should such a hero be lost.

Hartmann, however, later successfully lobbied to be reinstated as a combat pilot.

No. 304,

Yak-9 on 27.10.44/1016 over Nyregynaza (PQ 18265) @ 2500m: Previously thought to be 2912 ("29-292-12")/"29" of 2 AE, 150 GIAP, 13 GIAD, 5 VA. Gv.Lt. Nikolai Matveevich Knut, now thought to be an overclaim…

No. 306,

La-5 on 1.11.44/1435: Overclaiming. Only loss of an La-5 in Hartmann's area of operations this date is attributable to Hungarian pilot Capt. Laszlo Pottyondy

No.307,

Yak-7 on 7.11.44/1335 over PQ 98563 @ 1000m: Initially thought to be Possibly HQ of 13 GIAD, serial 32(292)14? Gv.Lt. Evgenii Andreevich Pyankov. 6 Yaks at 1400m in the Lajosmizse area against 4 'Fw 190's. Frontal attack, the Yak burst into flames. Pilot baled out WIA. Now thought to be an overclaim….

On 13 Novemeber 1944, Hartmann claims 3 x Yak fighters shotdown.

No. 309,

Yak-9 on 13.11.44/1410: Possibly 0215354 of 179 IAP, 331 IAD, 5 VA. Ml.Lt Evgenii Ivanovich Teplishev

No. 310

Yak-9 on 13.11.44/1415. Known to be an overclaim

No. 311, Yak-9 on 13.11.44/1425: Possibly 11186 of 149 GIAP, 13 GIAD, 5 VA. Gv.Ml.Lt Aleksandr Titovich Kotlyar

The following day, 14 November 1944, Hartmann claims 2 x La5s shotdown, however these losses cannot be matched.

Nos. 313 and 314,

La5s on 14.11.44. Originally thought that these were likely claims for 39213519 of 92 IAP, 279 IAD, 5 VA. *** Ml.Lt. Sergei Alekseevich Matveev WIA. Day's only known loss of an La-5 but was lost at 1520hrs, to Flak and 2 x Fw190s (Soviet records) overclaiming

No. 315

Yak-9 on 16.11.44. Originally thought possibly 2015315 of 73 GIAP, 6 GIAD, 5 VA. Alexandr Stepanovich Shuvalov. Now believed to be an overclaim

No.316

La-5 or Yak-9 on 16.11.44. If an La-5, was this Boris Vasilevich Zhigulenkov of 240 IAP, KIA? If a Yak-9 Possibly 2015315 of 73 GIAP, 6 GIAD, 5 VA. Alexandr Stepanovich

No. 317, Boston on 17.11.44/1425 over PQ 98584 @ 2000m: Overclaiming. 453 BAP, 218 BAD, 5 VA did indeed lose a Boston but it is attributable to Hungarian Capt. Laszlo Pottyondy. Csaba B Stenge states this was a "shared" kill

No. 318,

Yak-9 on 22.11.44/1140. Overclaiming, no Yak losses in this area

No. 319,

La-5 on 22.11.44/1145 over PQ 98452 @ 4500m: Possibly 177 GIAP, 14 GIAD, 5 VA. Pilot Kovrigin shot down in dogfight in Hatvan area

Nos. 320 & 321,

IL-2s on 22.11.44: Possibly 809 ShAP, 264 ShAD, 5 VA. Overclaiming, only one loss: crew of Polunin-Kuptsov, crashlanded 7km NW of Csany. Repaired and returned to service (attributed by Soviet sources to AAA).

In December, 1944, Hartmann continued with his steady claims of enemy aircraft.

Two La-5s on 5.12.44:

486 IAP, 279 IAD, 5 VA lost 39212724 of Ml.Lt. Vladimir Grigorevich Snagovski MIA at 1155 local time over Ercsi, S of Budapest (was this it?)

Two Yak-9s on 9.12.44:

150 GIAP lost 2329218 of Gv.Ml.Lt. Lev Gerasimovich Kamanyan crashlanded at 1450 local time after dogfight

From 1–14 February 1945, Hartmann briefly led I. Gruppe of Jagdgeschwader 53 as acting Gruppenkommandeur until he was replaced by Helmut Lipfert.

In March 1945, Hartmann, his score now standing at 336 aerial victories, was asked a second time by General Adolf Galland to join the Me 262 units forming to fly the new jet fighter.

Hartmann did indeed attend the jet conversion program led by Heinrich Bär.

Galland also intended Hartmann to fly with Jagdverband 44. Hartmann declined the offer, preferring to remain with JG 52.

Some sources report that Hartmann's decision to stay with his unit was due to a request via telegram made by Oberstleutnant Hermann Graf.

Now Gruppenkommandeur of I./JG 52, Erich Hartmann claimed his 350th aerial victory on 17 April, in the vicinity of Chrudim.

The last wartime photograph of Hartmann known was taken in connection with this victory.

Hartmann's last kill occurred over Brno, Czechoslovakia, on 8 May 1945, the last day of the war in Europe.

Early that morning, he was ordered to fly a reconnaissance mission and report the position of Soviet forces. Hartmann took off with his wingman at 08:30 and spotted the first Soviet units just 40 kilometres (25 miles) away.

Passing over the area, Hartmann saw two Yak-9s performing aerobatics for the Soviet columns.

Determined to "spoil the party", Hartmann dove upon the fighters from his vantage point at 12,000 ft (3,700 m) and shot one down from a range of 200 ft (61 m).

No. 352, Yak on 8.5.45

2 VA, 5 VA or 17 VA, pilot said to be KIA, listed as overclaim

As he lined up the second fighter, Hartmann noticed a flicker of shiny dots above him coming from the West; they were P-51s.

Rather than make a stand and be caught between the Soviets and the Americans, Hartmann and his wingman fled at low level into the pall of smoke that covered Brno.

When he landed, Hartmann learned that the Soviet forces were within artillery range of the airfield, so JG 52 destroyed Karaya One, 24 other Bf 109s, and large quantities of ammunition.

Hartmann later recalled his final violent action of the war:

"We destroyed the aircraft and all munitions, everything. I sat in my fighter and fired the guns into the woods where all the fuel had been dropped, and then jumped out. We destroyed twenty-five perfectly good fighters. They would be nice to have in museums now."

As Gruppenkommandeur of I./JG 52, Hartmann chose to surrender his unit to members of the US 90th Infantry Division.

After his capture, the U.S. Army handed Hartmann, his pilots, and ground crew over to the Soviet Union on 14 May 1945, where he was imprisoned in accordance with the Yalta Agreements, which stated that airmen and soldiers fighting Soviet forces had to surrender directly to them.

During his captivity Hartmann was first arrested on 24 December 1949, and three days later, he was sentenced to 20 years in prison.

Hartmann was charged with war crimes, specifically the "deliberate shooting of 780 Soviet civilians" in the village of Briansk, attacking a "bread factory" on 23 May 1943, and destroying 345 "expensive" Soviet aircraft.

In 1955, Hartmann's mother wrote to the new West German Chancellor, Konrad Adenauer, to whom she appealed to secure his freedom. A trade agreement between West Germany and the Soviet Union was reached, and Hartmann was released along with 16,000 German military personnel as one of the last Heimkehrer. After spending 10 and a half years in Soviet POW camps, he was among the last batch of prisoners to be turned over. Returning to West Germany, he was reunited with his wife Ursula, to whom he had written every day of the war.

During his long imprisonment, Hartmann's son, Erich-Peter, was born in 1945 and died as a three-year-old in 1948, without his father ever having seen him. Hartmann later had a daughter, Ursula Isabel, born on 23 February 1957.

When Hartmann returned to West Germany, he reentered military service in the Bundeswehr and became an officer in the West German Air Force, where he commanded West Germany's first all-jet unit, Jagdgeschwader 71 "Richthofen", which was equipped initially with Canadair Sabres and later with Lockheed F-104 Starfighters.

He also made several trips to the United States, where he was trained on U.S. Air Force equipment. He had the JG 71 aircraft painted with the same spreading black tulip pattern used by Karaya 1 on the Eastern Front.

After his military retirement, from 1971–74, Hartmann worked as a flight instructor in Hangelar, near Bonn, and also flew in an aerobatics team with Adolf Galland.

In 1980 he caught a cold that developed into angina pectoris — the condition that had killed his father at the age of 58. He recovered and, by 1983, was medically cleared to fly, after which he resumed instructing at the various flying schools.

However, fearing a second attack, he became cautious and limited his appearances at public events.

Hartmann stated:

"I am retired and I am a civilian, and now I like to have my rest and peace. I do not live for exhibitions."

Hartmann died on 20 September 1993, at the age of 71 in Weil im Schönbuch.

Question to Hartmann:

What were some of your more memorable combat experiences in fighting enemy aircraft?

A:

"One situation comes to mind. I was in a duel with a Red Banner flown Yak-9, and this guy was good, and absolutely insane. He tried and tried to get in behind me, and every time he went to open fire I would jerk out of the way of his rounds.

Then he pulled up and rolled, and we approached each other head on, firing, with no hits either way.

This happened two times.

Finally I rolled into a negative G dive, out of his line of sight, and rolled out to chase him at full throttle. I came in from below in a shallow climb and flamed him.

The pilot bailed out and was later captured.

I met and spoke with this man, a captain, who was a likeable guy. We gave him some food and allowed him to roam the base after having his word that he would not escape.

He was happy to be alive, but he was very confused, since his superiors told him that Soviet pilots would be shot immediately upon capture."

 

[JDCAVE]

I'm no expert on this but I would offer a few thoughts. The German fighter pilots in single engine aircraft padded their statistics against a poorly equipped and poorly trained Soviet air force, and in the earlier stages in the war against a poorly defended USAAF bomber force during the day. At least in the early stages. The German night fighter force was engaged against bombers. Once the "drill" was learned, these were more easily shot down. However, in all cases, the aces shot down most of the aircraft. There were many pilots who weren't successful at all. The RAF night fighter force faced a much smaller Luftwaffe over England and the intruder force faced a relatively small German night fighter force that had to be teased out from all of the friendly radar targets. As Flyboy points out, the American pilots were rotated through, and once their "tour" was over (if that is what it is called) they went back for extended periods either to training units, etc. The RAF was more similar in this regard. There were periods of rest. German pilots were not afforded that luxury. Finally, the Allied fighter pilots were up against other fighter pilots. These were more difficult prey. After the invasion, and once on the continent, air superiority was so complete, there simply weren't many German aircraft in the skies to shoot down.

Jim

 

[GregP]

I posted a thead about the scores of Hartmann. Comparing soviet files agains claims. Not in his favour to say the least.

That's true. But, then again, how reliable are Soviet records from Stalin's time? They told Papa Joe Stalin what he wanted to hear or sometimes died for telling the truth. He was a big proponent of "shooting the messenger" as well as everyone else he could think of.

Hi Flyboyj. I think the researchers are making a classic mistake of assuming the Soviet records are 100% accurate. I generally believe U.S., UK and German records, but have never believed much of what came out of the Soviet Union regarding war records. My ex-wife used to do Telcom shows all over the world, and she, along with me, acted as marketing reps for visiting buyers of Telcom equipment for a major Telcom supplier. This was the late 1980s, not too far from when the Soviet Union collapsed. Once, in 1989,we entertained a Russian couple from Moscow, who visited with their son when we lived in Arizona. They were buying SatCom units, Framing Units, etc. - Telcom equipment. He had formerly been a MiG-17 pilot for the VVS and we talked a bit about the times.

He wasn't very complimentary about the accuracy of WWII records when I asked about them. He basically said that if you told Stalin something he didn't want to hear, you very well might not live. It got to the point where nobody wanted to talk with him.

One amusing story from him:

He said that the U.S.A. would broadcast the TV series "The Untouchables" to the Soviet Union. This was a series about Al Capone and his gang in Chicago in the 1920s and 1930s, and there were a lot of scenes where gangsters were gunned down by people with Thompson submachine guns. This guys said that the worst fear his unit had was that war would break out and they would be assigned to capture Chicago! They were all pretty sure that Chicago was better-armed than they were!

None of us think about it much, but TV affect people's views of things.

When I was an engineer with Motorola in Phoenix, AZ, we once had a black engineer from Cameroon work with us. He wanted his girlfriend to come visit, but her parents wouldn't let her. It seems all we sent to Africa were Western stories, and her parents were pretty sure she'd be killed by Indians riding to Phoenix on a stagecoach!

He had to get a video camera and take clips of Phoenix, including some Indians riding in a pickup truck before they'd let her come visit.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

That's true. But, then again, how reliable are Soviet records from Stalin's time? They told Papa Joe Stalin what he wanted to hear or sometimes died for telling the truth. He was a big proponent of "shooting the messenger" as well as everyone else he could think of.

Sorry Greg - although we know "Papa Joe" was pretty brutal, many of the records released in 1991 CLEARLY show Soviet losses and do validate SOME of Hartman's claims.