WW2 Experimental, Prototype or Limited Producion planes not Quantity produced

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by oldcrowcv63, Mar 12, 2012.

  1. oldcrowcv63

    oldcrowcv63 Well-Known Member

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    #1 oldcrowcv63, Mar 12, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2012
    This thread topic has probably been done here ad nauseum but thought It might be worth a fresh try... It would have been nice to open this to all planes of all eras but given the forum, thought it better to focus on just those "might have beens" that didn't make into quantity production for whatever reason. I suppose selection could be made from any aircraft in the WW2 time frame: 1935-1945, assuming the war MIGHT have lasted longer given a set of different Axis decisions along the way.

    First entry?

    Heinkel 100, only 19 produced, faster than the Spit, and with longer legs than the 109, did the Luftwaffe miss a winner?
     

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  2. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

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    The German fanboys will say yes.

    The extra speed and range came from a smaller, lower drag airframe than the 109. Which means it would suffer some of the same problems as the 109, like the difficulty in upgrading the armament beyond one cannon and two machine-guns. Since the same cannon and engine did not play well together in the 109 of 1940 I don't see why they would in the He 100 without a lot of work. Adaptability as a fighter bomber may be suspect too. Single bomb rack would go right about where the retractable radiator is, unless bomb load is limited to four 50kg bombs ( two under each wing) the ability of the Heinkel's 157 sq ft wing (about 90% of the 109s wing) is suspect for load lifting from poor airfields.
     
  3. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    Plenty of them are at my liking:
    MiG-5 (2 engined one)
    Su-6
    Pe-2 + ASh-82FN
    I-185
    MiG-3U / I-220
    XB-28
    XF5F Skyrocket
    XP-47J
    XP-38K
    XP-51F/G
    XF4U-3
    Ki-64
    Ki-83
    Ki-96
    Fw-187
    Tempest Sea fury (the ones with leading edge radiators, gorgeous planes)
    Gloster F.9/37
    Fiat G.56
    Ambrosini SAI.403
    VG-33
    Fokker G.I

    Most, if not all, are described here:
    Virtual Aircraft Museum
     
  4. oldcrowcv63

    oldcrowcv63 Well-Known Member

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    Cool site! Thanks Tomo
     
  5. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    The Me-109 was designed for a max level speed of 250 mph.
    The He-100 was designed for a max level speed of 400+ mph.

    I don't think He-100 airframe advantages would become apparent until 1941 when the 1,350hp DB601E engine provides enough power to push the He-100 past 400 mph.
     
  6. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    He-100 seem much like the Yak-3, but several years earlier.
     
  7. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    They evaluated the He-100 prototype and considered it an excellent aircraft.
     
  8. Siegfried

    Siegfried Banned

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    #8 Siegfried, Mar 12, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2012
    Whatever the limmitations of the Heinkel He 100 were it is a very fast fighter aircraft. The production of a few hundred would have been a worthwhile endevour and would hardly have effected overall German fighter production. With a speed of 420mph in the guise of the He 100D-1 (which had already abandoned evaporative cooling) from a DD603M engine of 1163hp is extremely good. The Me 109F-2 managed about 370mph of a similar engine (DB601N) and managed 394mph of the 1270hp DB601E engine. A putative He 100D2 when given this engine should have provided the Luftwaffe with a 440mph fighter in late 1941 at the same time the Me 109F4 appeared. This is historically over 2 years before 440 mph aircraft such as the Sptifire Mk XIV and P-51 appeared in the fist month or so of 1944. There may not be a lot of growth in the airframe, perhaps it could or could not take the DB605 (I think it could) but it scarecely needed it.

    It would have gone a long way to providing the Luftwaffe with a stunning photoeconaisance aircraft and an aircraft quite capable of intercepting photo reconaisance spitifres and mosquitos, with the relative ease a 40 mph speed advantage allows. Certainly more valuable than the Me 163 which was designed for this role many years latter

    There is room for this niche aircraft.
     
  9. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    High altitude interceptor vs U.S. heavy bombers.

    If the DB601E / DB605 engine has a supercharger appropriate to that mission it will be fast enough to contend with P-47s @ 25,000 to 30,000 feet.
     
  10. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

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    See what I mean about the fan boys. :)

    "It would have gone a long way to providing the Luftwaffe with a stunning photoeconaisance aircraft and an aircraft quite capable of intercepting photo reconaisance spitifres and mosquitos, with the relative ease a 40 mph speed advantage allows."

    A short ranged photo recon plane. 90 imp gallons of fuel and not much internal room to put more. Plane is almost two feet shorter than a 109 and its wing is about 66% that of a Spitfire. Now stick in the cameras. You can put some fuel in the wings but it is going to be a lot less the the Spitfires held. Due to radiator and landing gear position a single drop tank is probably out of the question. Two is certainly possible but may mean more drag.
    Yes it has more potential as an interceptor. Part of the problem is which photo reconnaissance Spitfires and mosquitoes you are talking about. Against the early with single stage engines you are probably right. against the later ones with two stage engines at high altitude the he 100 probably won't work.

    "Certainly more valuable than the Me 163 which was designed for this role many years latter"

    That is damning with faint praise indeed. Chinese sky rockets were almost as effective as the Me 163 and a lot less dangerous to their own side. :)

    "High altitude interceptor vs U.S. heavy bombers.
    If the DB601E / DB605 engine has a supercharger appropriate to that mission it will be fast enough to contend with P-47s @ 25,000 to 30,000 feet."

    what wonder gun are you going to put in it that will take care of the bombers and the P-47s? It will only hold one Big gun so better make it a good one.
    While the DB605 may fit it may also depend on whichdb605 you are trying to use. The bigger supercharged models might be more iffy. The He 100 used a rather ingenious engine mounting arrangement in which the cowl not only covered the engine but was part of the engine mount. It helped with the small size but also meant that the cowl/mount/forward fuselage was rather closely fitted to the DB601. Like I said, the early DB605 may fit but the further along you go and the more/larger bits and pieces you hang on teh DB605 the less likely it is to fit. The Jumo 211 would not without substantial rework and an increase in drag/loss of performance.

    While the He 100 is certainly low drag it has about 1/2 the power at 30,000ft that an Early model "D" P-47 has even using one of the big supercharger DB605 engines. Without GM1 they were good for about 1100hp at 30,000ft give or take 50 or so HP. The D-10 could make 2200hp at 31,000ft with water injection, using a max of 56in of boost.

    So the idea is to put in a larger engine, adding 75-80kg, a Bigger prop, heavier guns and ammo and get the wing loading practically the same as the P-47, and power loading practically the same (at 30,000ft) and then depend on the lower drag to make all the difference?
    Please remember that the air density at 30,000ft (and thus the drag) is 40% or under of what is is at sea level.
     
  11. buffnut453

    buffnut453 Well-Known Member

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    Martin Baker MB3. Could have been great - fast, well-armed, easy to maintain. What's not to like...?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  12. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    1. The Soviet MiG I-222 was very good, if we can believe the figures. Should have been produced. They made 1 airframe.

    2. Mitsubishi Ki-83. Fast, heavily armed, and a winner if ever there was one. Should have been built.

    3. Nakajima G8N Renzan. Fast, heavy bomber. 4 built; should have been many more.

    4. Reggianne Re.2005. Possibly the best fighter of the war. Only 48 produced before Italy surrendered in 1943. Neat plane!

    5. Reggianne Re.2006. Spectacular. 466 mph. 1 built. A pity ...

    6. XP-72. The ultimate Thunderbolt. 2 built, SHOULD have been built in numbers. Great palne!

    7. More to come …
     
  13. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

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    Luftwaffe fanboys, RAF fanboys, Yankee fanboys...it's all the same...

    Every nation built winners and "could have beens"...it all comes down to circumstances that made or broke the final outcome of the designs.

    Yes, the He100 did not have the fuel capacity for long range ops, but so what if it couldn't carry a bomb...it was designed as a high-speed fighter/interceptor...let the Bf109 carry bombs if that's what makes people happy. Since the evaporative system was eliminated out of the wings, then use that area to suppliment the fuel capacity. There was no set rule that the Luftwaffe had to have only two primary fighters in thier inventory...the British had several, the U.S. had several, so why not Germany?

    And since we're on the subject of opportunities lost, why not toss the He280 into the ring? That was a huge opportunity for the Luftwaffe that was looked over...an aircraft that proved itself to be a world-class fighter before the Me262 prototype even flew under piston power. All the RLM had to do, was allocate funding to the jet engine research programs (Junkers, BMW and Heinkel-Hirth) at a time when the materials needed for production were readily available for production.
     
  14. fastmongrel

    fastmongrel Well-Known Member

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    This genuinely made me laugh out loud. Nice one Shortround:D
     
  15. DonL

    DonL Banned

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    As much as I appreciate your opinion, this is "rubbish".

    Every FW 187 developed with DB 601 engines would be a stunning photoeconaisance aircraft and could intercept every photo reconaisance spitifres and mosquitos easily. The FW 187 was faster as both british planes as testflights and datas has shown!

    And that has nothing to do with fan boys, that's the technical facts.

    I agree with you Shortround6 about the He 100D but the He 112 would be the much more interesting fighter with better engines and to my opinion it had much more potential for larger and heavier engines compare to the He 100D.

    The LW wasn't in need for a high altitude Bomber interceptor, this job was for the FW 190A and FW 190A "Sturmgruppen" and they did a very good job.
    The LW was in need for an high altitude fighter to cover their bomber interceptor and this job, as I have described several times, can do a developed FW 187 single seat fighter with two DB 605 engines!

    To come back to topic and from my knowledge I can only speak for the LW:

    FW 187 1939/42
    He 112 1939
    He 177/277 as four gondula engine heavy/strategic bomber 1941
     
  16. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    #16 tomo pauk, Mar 13, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2012
    Doh, I've forgot to add the XB-42 in the list :)
    And, of course, the VL Pyörremyrsky.
     
  17. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    Actually it was a job for the DB603 powered Fw-190C. Which Focke Wulf couldn't build because RLM didn't arrange for mass production of the DB603 engine until too late.

    1942 Germany had plenty of DB601 / DB605 and Jumo 211 engines so we need to consider airframes which could be powered by those engines. Personally I think the Fw-187 is a no brainer. Endurance, firepower and aerial performance were all very good.

    The He-100 may not have a place but I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. Give Heinkel development money for 10 prototypes powered by DB601E engines and armed with three MG151/20 cannon. If He-100 prototypes cannot carry three MG151/20 cannon or a high altitude version of the DB601E engine the program gets cancelled. But if Heinkel delivers the goods then his fighter aircraft gets to compete for a production contract.
     
  18. DonL

    DonL Banned

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    I disagree!

    The FW 190A and the Sturmgruppen FW 190A were able to the job against the bomber! The problem was the cover against the escort fighters!
    And cover against escort fighters are not bomber interceptors!

    I also disagree.

    I think the He 112 had more potential to bigger and larger engines and it was a much "easier" aircraft from the technical view, with perhaps much less difficult problems!.
     
  19. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

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    Trying to stuff a larger engine in the He112 would be like trying to cram a Merlin into a P-40...sure, it might go faster, but that won't solve the handling performance that's inherant to the aircraft's design. Unless you take the time to modify it's design while you're upgrtading it's powerplant...but at that point, you're pretty much creating a whole new aircraft.

    The He112 was clearly slower than the He100 and Bf109, had lackluster performance against contemporaries when deployed in various theaters. It ended up it's service in a ground attack role.

    With that in mind, why not pursue the better performing He100?
     
  20. DonL

    DonL Banned

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    #20 DonL, Mar 13, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2012
    Ähm,

    the He 112 is larger then the He 100 and Bf 109 and had more room!

    The He 112 would be interesting with the DB 605! The jump from the Bf 109F to the Bf 109G was clearly a fall back and I have my doubts, that a DB 605 could be cramped in a He 100D!

    This is purely speculativ but I think the He 112 could be a better performer with the DB 605 as the Bf 109G.
    One of the problems of the Bf 109G was that the aircraft was to small to get the engine (DB 605) propably oil cooled and this problem wasn't realy solved till the end of the war.

    Edit:
    Could you please explain this information? The He 112 was absolutely equal to the performance of the Bf 109 as you can easily see at the Rechlin Testreports.
     
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