WW2 pilot sidearms?

[Clayton Magnet]

Interestingly, the RAF's primary revolver, the Enfield No. 2 was also a .38.

.38 S&W is very different than .38 S&W Special

 

[GrauGeist]

Another thread about weapons for aircrew can be found here:
What weapons were issued to pilots, whether it be American, Japanese, or German?

One answer to the question "why revolvers?": they don't jam in extreme circumstances and/or conditions.

 

[Admiral Beez]

One answer to the question "why revolvers?": they don't jam in extreme circumstances and/or conditions.

Same goes for swords, I suppose.

JAPANESE WW2 ARMY PILOT’S SWORD - Pre98 Antiques

SPECTACULAR & RARE JAPANESE WW2 ARMY PILOT’S SWORD, SHORT REGULATION LENGTH FOR PILOTS AND TANK OFFICERS, WITH BELT & HANGER!

pre98.com

Of course I'd end up sitting on mine. Somehow this pilot can secure a full size katana in his cockpit.

 

[Frog]

.38 S&W is very different than .38 S&W Special

Chambered during WW2 in British service by :

- Enfield n° 2 MK I
- Webley MK IV
- Smith & Wesson K 38/200

 

[GrauGeist]

Same goes for swords, I suppose.

JAPANESE WW2 ARMY PILOT’S SWORD - Pre98 Antiques

SPECTACULAR & RARE JAPANESE WW2 ARMY PILOT’S SWORD, SHORT REGULATION LENGTH FOR PILOTS AND TANK OFFICERS, WITH BELT & HANGER!

pre98.com

Of course I'd end up sitting on mine. Somehow this pilot can secure a full size katana in his cockpit.

View attachment 874876

Going by memory, A6M pilots had a location to the left of their seat, on the lower part of the cockpit's sidewall.

I'm not sure about IJA fighters or other IJN types.

BTW, adding a Katana to an A6M model build would be a great touch.

 

[SaparotRob]

Going by memory, A6M pilots had a location to the left of their seat, on the lower part of the cockpit's sidewall.

I'm not sure about IJA fighters or other IJN types.

BTW, adding a Katana to an A6M model build would be a great touch.

Informative plus agreement equals winner.

 

[gruad]

One should note that armourers manuals covering small arms are used both for aircrew and ground staff in operational areas.

One impetus for the RAF Regiment's role was for RAF units to be able to defend themselves from the enemy on the ground. Simply arming squadron staff etc. was not good enough. It needed to have trained and specific light infantry on site. Of course the RAF Regiment's role was also manning anti aircraft positions and providing forward observers etc. with light armour. The Regiment's armourers would get the matching army manuals but the normal squadron armourers would get the RAF manuals covering the small arms available to arm the normal squadron staff where necessary.

Despite my personal army experience of standing guard against a potential automatic weapon armed and bomb laden terrorist threat with my trusty pick axe helve, wartime RAF airman routinely stood guard with small arms and provided a reserve guard armed also with normal small arms and all airmen had received some minor small arms skills in their basic training, but were not anywhere near trained infantry skills.

I cannot answer for other nations but for the British all members of all the armed forces are, when push comes to shove*, infantry. Privates to Generals, seamen to Admirals, airmen to Air Marshals, without exceptions, as the circumstances dictated.

My point is that small arms and small arm skills were routine parts of RAF resources and aircrew small arms were simply one very minor part of that and the small arms drawn from the armouries were those that happened to be issued to the unit.

I have, in the past, spoken with RAF aircrew who flew over Germany and their view was that a sidearm was a heavy inconvenience and obstruction in the cramped aeroplane, a nuisance administratively, á danger to each other and the aeroplane and, if they bailed out or crashed, was going to make it less likely to be taken prisoner rather than shot as a threat. They could think of few situations that were not going to be made worse by having and using a pistol rather than not. The principal effect would be to have expensively air transported useful pistols to the enemy for their use. Doubtless in other theatres and situation there are some arguments in favour of carrying an aircrew pistol.

Я сдаюсь. Если вы будете меня допрашивать, вам понадобятся услуги компетентного специалиста по аудиопечати.

*for trivia lovers the phrase comes from pike formations meeting in battle.

RAF regiment's greatest achievement was spotting a Ju88G Nightfighter that landed by mistake and interning the crew.

The tech haul reduced bomber losses from 10% to 1% in 1944. The heroes of the RAF regiment got no gongs as it was ultra secret

 

[MIflyer]

RAF regiment's greatest achievement was spotting a Ju88G Nightfighter that landed by mistake and interning the crew.

A German pilot was flying a Ju88 nightfighter from Paris to Berlin, misread his compass by 180 degrees, landed at an RAF base, pulled into a revetment, got out, and waited for the crew bus. The crew bus arrived and the two men started comparing their uniforms and noted some odd discrepancies.

There was a late model Ju88 nightfighter that showed up in Scotland one night. The exact circumstances are unclear, but the RAF gave the pilot a ride back to Germany that night, so it probably was a planned event, as well as an exchange of funds.

 

[EwenS]

RAF regiment's greatest achievement was spotting a Ju88G Nightfighter that landed by mistake and interning the crew.

The tech haul reduced bomber losses from 10% to 1% in 1944. The heroes of the RAF regiment got no gongs as it was ultra secret

A German pilot was flying a Ju88 nightfighter from Paris to Berlin, misread his compass by 180 degrees, landed at an RAF base, pulled into a revetment, got out, and waited for the crew bus. The crew bus arrived and the two men started comparing their uniforms and noted some odd discrepancies.

There was a late model Ju88 nightfighter that showed up in Scotland one night. The exact circumstances are unclear, but the RAF gave the pilot a ride back to Germany that night, so it probably was a planned event, as well as an exchange of funds.

There is much misinformation and conflation of events in these posts.

Sunday evening 9th May 1943.
A Ju 88R-1 (Werk Nr 360043 coded D5+EV of 10./ NJG3 based at Aalborg, Denmark) landed at Dyce airfield, 5 miles north west of Aberdeen, Scotland (Now Aberdeen airport). It carried the Lichenstein C1 FuG 212. That radar was an improved longer ranged 1943 version of a set that had been in service since 1942.

Its crew (or at least two of the three) were defecting to the Allies. There is still a bit of mystery surrounding the exact circumstances of this flight, but it was escorted into Dyce in daylight by Spitfires of 165 squadron based at nearby Peterhead airfield. The aircraft however still exists inn the RAF Museum at Hendon, London. As for the RAF giving them a ride back to Germany "that night", that seems to be completely false given the story that they made radio broadcasts in Britain under new identities a month later.

The Defection of Herbert Schmid

Personal history of aviation people from all nations and all eras, and including descriptions of the site's methods and objectives, including original research.

aircrewremembered.com

It was research on this aircraft that helped play a part in reducing Bomber Command aircraft losses from late 1943.

Thursday 13th July 1944
Ju 88G-1 (Werk Nr. 712273 coded 4R+UR of 7./NJG 2 based at Volkel, Netherlands) landed at Woodbridge, Suffolk, England after flying a reciprocal course, having lost radio contact with their base. The inexperiended crew thought that they were near Berlin! It carried the then latest Luftwaffe radar / homing electronic suite - Lichenstein FuG 220 SN-2 radar and the FuG 227 Flensburg radar receiver / homing device (to home on the Monica tail radar in RAF bombers).

Captured Ju 88 Radar Nightfighter

Personal history of aviation people from all nations and all eras, and including descriptions of the site's methods and objectives, including original research.

aircrewremembered.com

Its surrender was taken by an RAF Flight Sergeant armed with nothing more than a flare pistol!

One of our Junkers has Landed by John Powell

It is well documented that at 4.25 a.m. on 13th July 1944 a Junkers JU88G-I aircraft of the Luftwaffe’s 7.INJG 2 Unit made a wheels down landing at RAF Woodbridge, Suffolk. Its

www.heroesofourtime.co.uk

Woodbridge, opened in Nov 1943, was one of three emergency landing grounds (the others were at Manston in Kent and Carnaby in East Yorkshire) with extra wide runways and was equipped with FIDO (Fog Investigation and Dispersal Operation) equipment. Its purpose was to receive aircraft with battle damage unable to make it back to their home bases, or that were prevented from doing so by the prevailing weather conditions. It was not a regular airfield with operational squadrons.

By July 1944, much of the RAF Regiment in Britain had been, or was being prepared to, move to the Continent to protect the ever expanding number of airfields being constructed on the Continent, or had been redeployed to the south east of England on anti-Diver (V-1) defence. By then the Luftwaffe threat to Bomber Command airfields was negligible.

OPERATION ‘OVERLORD’ - THE ROYAL AIR FORCE REGIMENT IN NORMANDY AND THE LIBERATION OF EUROPE - RAF Regiment Heritage

Thursday 6th June 2021 marks the 76th Anniversary of the Allied landings in Normandy in which the RAF Regiment participated.

www.rafregimentheritagecentre.co.uk

OPERATION DIVER - RAF Regiment Heritage

www.rafregimentheritagecentre.co.uk

 

[glennasher]

I remember reading a magazine article, back in the 1970s, about a Sauer drilling (double barrel shotgun with a rifle barrel underneath it) in 16x16x9.3x62, which was in a nice leather fitted case, and it was an ISSUED ITEM for Stukas in North Africa, apparently Goering thought the Stuka pilots might be forced down and need to defend themselves against wild animals and such. I thought that it was pretty extravagant of the Luftwaffe, even early in the war, to issue such expensive firearms.

 

[MIflyer]

In that movie about King Kong on Skull Island, it begins with a Japanese pilot and an American P-51 pilot parachuting onto the island following a dogfight which they both lost. They have a shoot-out, with a Model 1911 versus a Mauser C96 "Broomhandle." I though that was absurd, since they surely could have found a Nambu somewhere for the Japanese pilot, but later read in a book about the Marine fighter squadron on Guadalcanal that they had found that the Japanese pilots' favorite sidearm was indeed the Broomhandle. So someone did some impressive research for that movie.

 

[gruad]

Sorry I assumed the July landing would be RAF regiment and did not realise they were on the continent.

They took the Ju88G up and it could detect emissions from 100 miles of a Lancaster. This is in R.V.Jones' book.

The big culprit was tail warning radar Monica. They deleted that and switched off IFF over the continent.

Sneakily they fitted Monica to the Mosquito night fighter, which used it's incredible speed to get behind the much slower German night fighters.

 

[EwenS]

Sorry I assumed the July landing would be RAF regiment and did not realise they were on the continent.

They took the Ju88G up and it could detect emissions from 100 miles of a Lancaster. This is in R.V.Jones' book.

The big culprit was tail warning radar Monica. They deleted that and switched off IFF over the continent.

Sneakily they fitted Monica to the Mosquito night fighter, which used it's incredible speed to get behind the much slower German night fighters.

Operations using RAF Beaufighter night fighters to home on Luftwaffe Lichenstein AI radars began in June 1943 using the Serrate device with operators being trained to recognise the signals as a result of access to the Ju 88R-1 delivered to Dyce a month earlier. 141 squadron was the initial user with Beaufighter VI. It used these through to Feb 1944, augmented by Mosquito NF.II from Oct 1943. Until Dec 1943 it was based at Wittering before moving to West Raynham for the rest of the war.

Serrate Radar

Serrate Radar System Airborne Interception Radar, Mark IV, or AI Mk.IV for short was the world’s 1st operational air-to-air Radar System. Early Mk.III units appeared in July 1940 on converted…

tailendcharlietedchurch.wordpress.com

The following books give a good picture of the RAF's electronic war with Germany in WW2.

Amazon.co.uk

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Confounding-Reich-Operational-History-Support/dp/1852605073

 

[muskeg13]

I remember reading a magazine article, back in the 1970s, about a Sauer drilling (double barrel shotgun with a rifle barrel underneath it) in 16x16x9.3x62, which was in a nice leather fitted case, and it was an ISSUED ITEM for Stukas in North Africa, apparently Goering thought the Stuka pilots might be forced down and need to defend themselves against wild animals and such. I thought that it was pretty extravagant of the Luftwaffe, even early in the war, to issue such expensive firearms.

This is probably the most elegant aircrew survival weapon ever issued.

M30 Luftwaffe Drilling - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The M30 Drilling and the Luftwaffe Shotgun

The M30 drillings and the Luftwaffe shotguns issued to German aces during the North African Campaign are some of the rarest and unique arms of WW2.

www.rockislandauction.com