WWII submarines...which was the better one?

[Lucky13]

Of the fighting parties in WWII, which had the better submarine force. Which of those from USN, Kriegsmarine, RN, IJN, RM and so on was the better weapon system as say today? How does a Type IX compare to a Gato class sub? Did the French and Russia have something to show?

 

[Soren]

The KriegsMarine hands down. The Type VIII Type IX subs were the best in the world before the Type XXI was introduced.

 

[Glider]

With the obvious exception of the Type XXI, I would go for the US Fleet boats as being the best.

Their combination of range, firepower and technical equipment was second to none.

The most successful was one of the German Type IXb versions, I cannot remember which one. On average, every boat in the class sank over 100,000 tons.

 

[Soren]

I beg you pardon Glider, no US boat possessed the same quality equipment as the German subs. The German subs were equipped with accoustic homing torpedoes, anti radar coatings, schnorkel, Zeiss optics, advanced sonar etc etc..

The Type VII Type IX were techincally second to none other than the Type XXI sub.

 

[Lucky13]

Which would be in the same class as the German Type VII and Type IX subs, the IX was a ocean going sub, right, wasn't the VII that too, as it was found on the east coast of US? How about the computer or what it was called on the US subs?

 

[Soren]

The computer ??

If you're talking about the targeting computer the German US subs used similar systems.

 

[AVRoe]

While Japan built many submarines that were larger than those of other Navies, the three Sen Toku boats were far larger than anything ever seen before. Some 60% larger than the largest contemporary American submarine, USS Argonaut, they had more than twice her range. The most unusual feature was that they each carried three floatplane bombers (and parts for a fourth), a feat never achieved by any other class of submarine. These aircraft folded to fit into the 115-foot cylindrical hangar, which was slightly offset to starboard and opened forward to access the catapult. The huge double hull was formed of parallel cylindrical hulls so that it had a peculiar lazy-eight cross section, and may have inspired the Soviet Typhoon-class built some 40 years later. Although aircraft must be considered their primary armament, they also carried a formidable torpedo battery and the usual 14cm deck gun. Anti-aircraft armament included ten 25mm cannons in three triple mounts and one single. Each of these boats had radar and a snorkel.

The aircraft were the Aichi M6A1 Seiran, also carried by the Type AM submarines. Each of these monoplanes could carry one aerial torpedo or a bomb weighing up to 800kg. Powered by the 1,400hp Atsuta 32 engine (similar to Germany's DB601) they had a top speed of 295mph and were credited with a range of 642 nautical miles. The Sen Toku submarines carried four aerial torpedoes, three 800kg bombs, and twelve 250kg bombs to arm these aircraft. These aircraft had their assembly points coated with fluorescent paint to ease assembly in the dark, so four trained men could prepare an aircraft for launch in seven minutes. All three aircraft could be prepared, armed, and launched in 45 minutes.

 

[Lucky13]

That's the one I mean....wasn't too sure what it was called. Don't know much about subs Soren, but I thought that the one used on US subs were superior....am I wrong? In which ways were they similar and different?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I am going to have to go with the Kriegsmarine U-Boots. Between the Type VII all the way to the Type XXI the Kriegsmarine possessed great Submarines.

The US Navy also had a great Fleet Subs that saw great use in the Pacific.

The main reason that I will go with the Kriegsmarine U-Boots is because of there use of the Wolf Packs. They had great tactics and for quite some time were able to cause great fear in the Atlantic.

 

[Glider]

I beg you pardon Glider, no US boat possessed the same quality equipment as the German subs. The German subs were equipped with accoustic homing torpedoes, anti radar coatings, schnorkel, Zeiss optics, advanced sonar etc etc..

The Type VII Type IX were techincally second to none other than the Type XXI sub.

Accoustic homing torpedo's - certainly but late in the war the USA had these as well
anti radar coatings - that didn't work
schnorkel - certainly but not on all
Zeiss optics - certainly but outranged and outclassed by the US radar
Advanced sonar - but matched by US Sonar

What the Germans lacked were
Air Search radar
Surface search radar
Sonar that was designed to penetrate minefields
Torpedo tubes - 6 in the Type IX, 5 in the Type VII, 10 in the US Fleet class
Torpedo's - 14 in the type VII, 22 in the Type IX, 24 in the Fleet Class
Secure line of sight communications by night.

 

[Lucky13]

XXI is an awesome machine Adler, but I have to say of those that saw most combat the Type IX-D2 is my favorite, like U-181. Hardegen was rather successful with his IXB U-123....

 

[Lucky13]

Accoustic homing torpedo's - certainly but late in the war the USA had these as well
anti radar coatings - that didn't work
schnorkel - certainly but not on all
Zeiss optics - certainly but outranged and outclassed by the US radar
Advanced sonar - but matched by US Sonar

What the Germans lacked were
Air Search radar
Surface search radar
Sonar that was designed to penetrate minefields
Torpedo tubes - 6 in the Type IX, 5 in the Type VII, 10 in the US Fleet class
Torpedo's - 14 in the type VII, 22 in the Type IX, 24 in the Fleet Class
Secure line of sight communications by night.

1: What was the anti radar coating made of?
2: Zeiss? I take it that you mean the periskope?
3: Sonar that was designed to penetrate minefields? How does that work?
4: 10 tubes and 24 torpedoes? Was there any room left for the crew?
5: Secure line of sight communications by night? Periskope again, right? What is it and how does it work?

 

[Graeme]

anti radar coatings - that didn't work

1: What was the anti radar coating made of?

 

[Soren]

Accoustic homing torpedo's - certainly but late in the war the USA had these as well

What effective accoustic torpedoes did the US subs have Glider, I'm curious!

anti radar coatings - that didn't work

The anti radar coatings did work however Glider

schnorkel - certainly but not on all

Do you have any idea of how many ?

Zeiss optics - certainly but outranged and outclassed by the US radar

Explain to me how the US used radar while submerged.

For surface attacks the German U-boat had the Ballspiel gunnery radar.

Advanced sonar - but matched by US Sonar

How ?

What the Germans lacked were
Air Search radar

FuMO 61 65.

Plus Naxos radar warning.

Surface search radar

FuMO 83 84

Sonar that was designed to penetrate minefields

Designed to ? The Germans were using very accurate sonar equipment Glider, more than accurate enough to detect mine fields.

Torpedo tubes - 6 in the Type IX, 5 in the Type VII, 10 in the US Fleet class

Completely irrelevant.

Torpedo's - 14 in the type VII, 22 in the Type IX, 24 in the Fleet Class
Secure line of sight communications by night.

Ever considered comparing the size of the boats ???

 

[Lucky13]

Gato:
Range: Surfaced:12,000nm at 10knots
Submerged:95nm at 5knots

Type IX:
Range: surfaced 11.079 nm at 10 knots
submerged 99 nm at 4 knots

I take it that submerged range is on batteries before recharging them?

 

[Soren]

Yup.

 

[Glider]

What effective accoustic torpedoes did the US subs have Glider, I'm curious!

The US developed an electric anti-escort torpedo. Torpedo Mk 27 Mod 0, or "Cutie," was the adaptation of Mine Mk 24 for submarine use, and saw service starting late 1944/early 1945 in the Pacific theater

The anti radar coatings did work however Glider

I don't believe that they did. The previous posting supports that position plus the losses the U Boats had to suffer to air attack

Re number of U Boats that didn't have a Schnorkel Do you have any idea of how many ?

I admit that I don't. In his book Iron Coffins Herbert Werner describes how he was desperately searching for the parts to complete the Schnorkel equipment for the submarine he has been assigned to command.
He also mentions a total of 120 'old type' boats being prepared for combat on which he doesn't elaborate apart from saying that 80 are large boats and 40 small boats. My guess is that these are training boats that were unlikely to be so equipped.

Explain to me how the US used radar while submerged.

Easy, they couldn't but then neither could anyone else.

For surface attacks the German U-boat had the Ballspiel gunnery radar.

Of very little if any use at all. Gunnery from a small rolling pitching U Boat was difficult at point blank range. The fact that you know the range is of little assistance if you are trying to hit a ship at 8km the maximum effective range is of little help

FuMO 61 65.

FuMo 61 was in widespread use at the end of the war, but questions remain about its effectiveness. With a range of 20KM against aircraft it would in theory have made the U Boat almost imune against aircraft attack, but as we all know this wasn't the case. Many U Boats were sunk in surprise attacks using the Leigh Light which is a very short range weapon.

Plus Naxos radar warning.

Naxos was effective against the 10cm ASW radar, but at the same time as the Naxos was intorduced into service, the Allies introduced the 3cm radar against the which the Naxos was useless. So I am afraid it was soon obsolete, there were also problems with the antenna.

FuMO 83 84

I have found the comment on U Boat net but can find no mention of this radar as being in production or service on any other web page or book that I have read or am in position of. I don't know if this ever entered service, have you any information that could help with this?

Re Sonars and minefields Designed to ? The Germans were using very accurate sonar equipment Glider, more than accurate enough to detect mine fields.

There is a difference in being able to detect minefields, and penetrate minefields. The Japanese relied on minfields in a number of key areas and the US were able to use their sonar to get through the minefields submerged.

Re number of torpedo tubes per boat Completely irrelevant.

I must disagree. I have read a number of books on the U boat war and there were a number of times when A U boat was in a very good position within a convoy and had to break off the attack to reload the torpedo tubes.
With more tubes more vessels would have been sunk.

Ever considered comparing the size of the boats ???

Nope, the object was to find the best. If you want to include size then the British U/V class would be in with a shout but I wouldn't by any means call them the best.

 

[AL Schlageter]

Soren, you claim to have no bias so what were the positive/good points of the American boats and the negative/bad points of the German boats.

Re Sonars and minefields Designed to ? The Germans were using very accurate sonar equipment Glider, more than accurate enough to detect mine fields.

Didn't work to well for the boats that tried to penetrate the waters in the Bristol Channel. Three U-boats were recently found that were sunk by mines.

 

[Glider]

I seem to have mad an error in my previous message. US Fleet boats could apparently use their radars while submerged.
In one of my books on the Submarine war there is a section on how they received the news that the war was over. One of the US boats clearly stated that they were submerged with the air search radar operating when they receieved the news.
I admit to not knowing how this was done, but its probable that the radio mast had the radar antenna on it and the two were raised together.

 

[Soren]

Glider,

Nearly all the equipment I listed were standard for German U-boats. (Anto radar coating for the schnorchel was not)

If you found some comments on U-boat net then look at the bottom of the page to see the sources, cause U-boat.net always backs up its information with a list of respectable sources.

And about the Allied acoustic torpedo, again it was NOT effective and it was incredibly small unlikely to cause any serious damage to what'ever it hit. The German accoustic homing torpedoes on the other hand were the same fullsize torpedoes with a 280 kg warhead as their std. torpedoes and their homing system was a whole lot better.

And about the anti radar coatings, well they were infact highly effective, reducing radar signature by 90%. However not many U-boats were equipped with this.

Furthermore German subs also used anti sonar coatings, making them harder to spot with sonar. This worked very well, reducing the signature by about 15%, not much, however the noise of the boat was reduced as-well increasing the stealth capability of the boat.

Soren, you claim to have no bias so what were the positive/good points of the American boats and the negative/bad points of the German boats.

And you claim not to be biased

You want me to make a generalized statement, well sorry but its not that simple since there were different types of U-boats around.

Didn't work to well for the boats that tried to penetrate the waters in the Bristol Channel. Three U-boats were recently found that were sunk by mines.

Two ?! Wow! I bet the US lost no U-boats to minefields.