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Please expand the above for more comments and drawings.You have obviously never done weight and balance on a real aircraft, or actually worked on a P-39, or you would know that much of what you wrote above is not correct. Worse still, as many of the pilots on the forum will tell you, a stall caused by aft CG on many aircraft is stable meaning you cannot regain control. Regardless of power or control inputs the aircraft remains stalled and drops like a brick with almost zero forward speed. I have gone to two funerals caused by this mistake. Both pilots had carefully calculated there gross weight CG but forgot to check their low fuel, low speed, gear down CG.
You will note in your own writing that the Soviets removed the IFF to compensate for the removal of the 30 cals. There is nothing else heavy back there to remove except the oil tank and that is aft of the fuselage joint line. There is a tie down kit but that weighs about 5 or 6 lbs so is not going to help. Yes you could move the oil tank (and coolant tank) into the wing leading edge like the Hurricane did but that introduces all sorts of other problems. And you can remove the radios from above the engine (they and the engine are actually aft of the CG which is just above 2 = fuel, 9 = guns and 10 = wing ammo in the diagram the below and all forward of the CG) but where would you fit them?
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I never said the Soviets removed the IFF radio in the tail to compensate for removing the .30s. The .30s were located in the wing on/near the CG and their removal would require no compensation of any kind whatsoever. The removal of the 120lb IFF radio from the tail apparently caused no CG problem at all since the Soviets didn't remove anything from the nose to compensate. The P-39 was able to be balanced despite all the different propeller, armament, armor, supercharger and radio combinations used.
On any aircraft if you remove 100lb from the very front of the aircraft you must compensate by removing weight from the rear.
If the weight you remove aft of the cg is only 50 lb then it must come from twice the distance from the CG that the removed weight was. etc etc etc
I have never seen anything from Bell saying the designed the P-39 to take the ASB used on the P-63. The coolant tank takes up all that space behind the engine on a P-39 and there is also structure there, including the fuselage bolt line, that would prevent an ASB being fitted. Find a flying example near you and go visit it as soon as restrictions allow. The lack of free space in that powerplant will surprise you and clearly show that there is no way it could fit an ASB.
They did design it with a turbo but that went under the engine.
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This diagram shows the engine and supercharger outline but does not show the starter or generator or any of the mass of plumbing and "small" parts that extend from the rear of the engine. The oil tank is aft of the bolt line but the bulkhead is shaped to allow part of it to extend into the engine bay. There is no way an ASB would fit there.
I think we are letting national pride intrude on the discussion of how mechanically adept the Americans were.
It is not a question of how good a small group of engineers or designers were.
It is a question of how many troops (a percentage of total troops) had driven or worked on motor vehicles (or boats or industrial machinery).
What this means to an army (any army) is how much training is required to turn recruits into drivers or mechanics/fitters.
The army is going to put the troops selected for those jobs through some sort of training course and not just turn them loose.
How many hours or weeks should the course/s be given the average level of knowledge the troops bring from civilian life?
The American advantage was not that they were smarter or more mechanical adept 'naturally' but that they had much more experience driving/maintaining cars and machinery on average
per 1000 recruits. than other armies.
How good you were rebuilding a turret lathe in civilian life gives you some advantage in working on truck/tank but perhaps not as much as a guy who worked in a gas station and had seen any number of minor problems.
And again, that is a linear calculation based on that one aircraft. You cannot guarantee that for all P-39s especially if you were to remove that weight in the field. Removing weight in the nose may require ballast in the tail and again this depends where the Mean Aerodynamic Chord falls to give the best flying qualities (whether you're looking for speed or maneuverability). Yes, the weight removal will give you the performance, but there's a limit on what you can do in the field.This means that for every pound of weight saved the rate of climb increases by 1.2fpm. In other words, if you reduce the weight of a P-39 by 300lbs the rate of climb increases by 360fpm.
This was a very "doable" exercise at the factory but as this discussion started out about doing this in the field to a production airframe, you're looking at 2 different scenarios that will not yield the same results and could actually be dangerous. As stated many times, the P-39 had a vertical and horizontal C/G which is not very common for fixed wing aircraft. In the field you can remove weight but may have to add ballast to remain within C/G limits, and even then I don't think the P-39 is an aircraft you really want to be tail heavy.Yes the plane had to be in balance after the items were removed. Bell proved they could do that even with varying weights for propellers, nose cannons, aux. stage superchargers, rear armor plate and radio equipment in the tail. The plane was balanced on all those different forms.
I'd like to see this play out on an actual weight and balance chart and it the end see where everything falls into place with a "production" equipment list.
The IFF radio is the black rectangle in the tail. It is actually farther away from the CG than the nose armor. Remove the 100lb nose armor and the IFF radio and the P-39 is balanced. Or just move the IFF radio up above the engine behind the pilot nearly on the CG and accomplish the same thing.
Not from me. I am, after all, American. I'm as patriotic as the next man. I just want to do so with clear-eyed comprehension, cognizant of the widest-possible breadth of facts rather than a nationalistic agenda that perpetuates myths based on false assumptions.
Entirely agree. However, there persists this perception that countries other than America all had a "small group of engineers".
These Great War veterans were the backbone of British industry in the 1930s....and yet you're telling me that, because they didn't own a car, they weren't as well-versed in things mechanical as their American counterparts?
The IFF radio is the black rectangle in the tail. It is actually farther away from the CG than the nose armor. Remove the 100lb nose armor and the IFF radio and the P-39 is balanced. Or just move the IFF radio up above the engine behind the pilot nearly on the CG and accomplish the same thing.
You don't know that until you know the arm and moment!!!! And you also have to calculate that in vertical datum!
The Allies didn't recognize the Ki-43 as a distinct type until 1943. Prior to that point, all single-engine Japanese fighters with retractable undercarriage were Zeros, with the variation for the A6M3 identified when it entered service because of its clipped wingtips (and, of course, the Allied reporting names that were associated).
You are correct on the reduction gear, but the 2:1 was also used on the D-2 with the -63 engine. I really can't be sure about the M propeller, some sources say the Curtiss prop was used, some say the Aeroproducts prop was used. I haven't read anywhere that either prop was larger then the 10'4" prop used on the earlier models.
Bell said in writing that the nose armor plate was not needed for ballast/balance on the P-39M. The M was an early model with the same weight and weight distribution as previous and later models. They were able to balance the plane with larger (heavier) propellers and different nose cannons that differed in weight by 140lbs. Bell designed the P-39 to take larger (heavier) three blade and four blade propellers and an auxiliary stage supercharger behind the engine that weighed 175lbs. They certainly were able to maintain proper balance with any or all of these items installed. The nose armor certainly could have been deleted and balance maintained.
Guess I wasn't clear, didn't mean to imply that the 20mm was used in the M. The 20mm was used in the P-400 and the D-1. Point I was making was that the 140lb weight difference was compensated for by Bell to make prior and subsequent P-39 models balanced. Why would you say that I am trying to bait and switch?
Hello buffnut453,
I am not disputing that fact. I am just wondering that if the pilots were noting a difference in the cowl size and nothing else, then perhaps there was nothing else to note and there are a LOT more detail differences between the Ki 43 and A6M.
Some of those differences are a lot more obvious than the size of the engine cowl such as the presence or absence of wing guns.
It is sort of like telling me that this is a different woman because the colour of her eyes is different but not pointing out that she is also six inches taller and 50 pounds heavier.
- Ivan.
From a screenshot of a USAAF identification chart from 1942.The Allies didn't recognize the Ki-43 as a distinct type until 1943. Prior to that point, all single-engine Japanese fighters with retractable undercarriage were Zeros, with the variation for the A6M3 identified when it entered service because of its clipped wingtips (and, of course, the Allied reporting names that were associated).
Please expand the above for more comments and drawings.
The aux. stage supercharger occupied the same space as the coolant tank. On the P-63 (and the XP-39E) the coolant tank was moved forward to above the engine just aft of the pilot and flattened somewhat in shape to fit. In this diagram there is a bulkhead between the oil tank and the coolant tank, and the oil tank is clearly completely behind that bulkhead, as it was on the P-63. The area occupied by the coolant tank on the P-39 was exactly the same size as the area occupied by the aux. stage supercharger on the P-63.
From a screenshot of a USAAF identification chart from 1942.
Please note in the upper left corner the two fighters: "Zeke" and "Oscar".
In the heat of battle, you have a split second to realize you're being bounced by an enemy fighter.
Do you:
A) stop to be sure of the aircraft type
B) wait to see if it has any particular identifying features
C) shoot it down and try and figure out what it was later in the action report.
A and B will get you killed.
C is what happened most often and due to the strong similarity between the two, confusion is very understandable.
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Entirely agree. I'm always dubious of aircraft descriptions derived from the heat of combat. I think it highly unlikely that anyone could objectively determine different cowling opening diameters. I suspect it was just the impression the pilot(s) perceived in the split second they saw it...and that perception could be entirely skewed by stress.
If pilots were so good at aircraft recognition, we wouldn't have Hurricanes being mistaken for Spitfires, Me 109s for He113s, or even noting Me109s over Malaya in 1941!
Delete No. 12. This chart is for the P-39Q, this item weighed 100lbs on most earlier models.
From a screenshot of a USAAF identification chart from 1942.
Please note in the upper left corner the two fighters: "Zeke" and "Oscar".
In the heat of battle, you have a split second to realize you're being bounced by an enemy fighter.
Do you:
A) stop to be sure of the aircraft type
B) wait to see if it has any particular identifying features
C) shoot it down and try and figure out what it was later in the action report.
A and B will get you killed.
C is what happened most often and due to the strong similarity between the two, confusion is very understandable.
View attachment 597326
My statements agree exactly. I stated that the nose armor was not needed on the P-39M and that the M was an early model with similar weight and weight distribution as earlier and later models. All the P-39 models were balanced whether they had the heavier 37mm cannon or the lighter by 140lbs 20mm cannon.Hello P-39 Expert,
The P-39K also used a 2:1 reduction with a -63 engine.
Detail & Scale 63 states that an Aeroproducts propeller of 11 feet 1 inch was used on the P-39M. I don't know if other sources give greater detail on the specifics about the propeller. I was gathering information on P-39 when I started working on a project a couple years ago. I got a bit stuck because I could not find a really good fuselage drawing.
Regarding P-39M propeller diameters, what you just stated directly contradicts your earlier statement which I have reproduced below. You need to make up your mind which story you are going with.
Your two statements above which I have quoted simply do not agree.
You state that the P-39M didn't need the nose armour because a larger (heavier) propeller and cannon that weighed 140 pounds more could make up the difference.
The problem is 140 pounds more than WHAT?
ALL of the preceding models of the P-39 back to the P-39F (F, J, K, L) carried the same 37 mm cannon with only minor differences in weight as the P-39M did.
- Ivan.
When I said the aux. stage blower occupied the same space as the coolant tank, I meant that it occupied the same general location. Not that it was exactly the same size. It was larger than the coolant tank, but did fit in the location occupied by the coolant tank.Now let us put those three errors you keep making permanently to bed.
P-39 rear fuselage. I cannot find my -2, -3 &- 4 for the P-39 aircraft so the first drawing is a P-39 rear fuselage from an on line IPL (-4) that is missing 90% of its pages. Note that the oil tank extends forward from the bulkhead and is partially restrained by curved strap across the front of the bulkhead.
- The aux. stage supercharger occupied the same space as the coolant tank.
- the (P-39) oil tank is clearly completely behind that bulkhead, as it was on the P-63.
- The area occupied by the coolant tank on the P-39 was exactly the same size as the area occupied by the aux. stage supercharger on the P-63.
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The following diagrams are from the Airacobra Design Analysis in the May 43 edition of Aviation magazine and clearly show the shape of the P-39 rear fuselage front bulkhead and the cutout that the oil tank extends through and that the oil tank is mounted hard forward in the rear fuselage. Furthermore is mounted at an angle causing a significant volume of it to extend forward into the engine bay.
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View attachment 597330
P-63 rear fuselage from SRM (-3) and IPL (-4). Note that all three illustrations show the oil tank spherical support is mounted back from the bulkhead, and the oil tank is mounted behind the bulkhead to allow space for the ASB. NOte also the cutout in the P-63 bulkhead is somewhat larger than the cutout in the P-39 bulkhead.
View attachment 597329
View attachment 597328
View attachment 597327
From the above it is abundantly clear that the only way to fit and ASB in a P-39 is to delete the oil tank and carve a large hole in the rear fuselage front bulkhead. Either and both of these changes would render the aircraft inoperative.
QED Allison engines with ASBs attached cannot be installed in any production P-39 airframes because
- The aux. stage supercharger occupied a larger space
asthan the coolant tank.- the (P-39) oil tank is clearly not completely behind that bulkhead, as it was on the P-63.
- The area occupied by the coolant tank on the P-39 was not exactly the same size as the area occupied by the aux. stage supercharger on the P-63.