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That is what Claringbold writes, but not clearly; it can be misconstrued that these are the total combat losses for both sides during the campaign/ time period. That is not the case, for both sides lost P-39's and Zero's to enemy action on missions where they didn't meet in combat.
That is the total losses in the combats in which P-39's met Zero's in combat. So 44 P-39's lost to all causes against 15 Zero's lost to all causes (all causes in this case being P-39's).
Could it possibly be that you and Ivan need to start understanding what I am saying? Both of you have a very condescending attitude, getting old.
Not discounting or ignoring their comments. I just believe that 836lbs of weight will affect climb rate and nobody on here will acknowledge that. A slightly different propeller or a slightly altered CG or slightly varying HP are just small discrepancies that would be present in any test of the exact same airplane. Especially when there is no proof whatsoever that the CG was not proper in either airplane, or that the HP varied at all. In regards to the propeller, what was the exact difference in the two propellers? Any at all? They were of the same diameter.For the simple reason that nothing, and I mean NOTHING, in an aircraft's performance is a straightforward binary association. Certainly lower weight will contribute to improved climb performance but lots of other factors come into play, as others on the thread have repeatedly tried to point out. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to align with your viewpoint so you discount or ignore their comments.
Speaking of ignoring comments, have you found any USAAF pilots who said they wanted the 30 cals removed from the wings of their P-39s yet?
Not discounting or ignoring their comments. I just believe that 836lbs of weight will affect climb rate and nobody on here will acknowledge that. A slightly different propeller or a slightly altered CG or slightly varying HP are just small discrepancies that would be present in any test of the exact same airplane. Especially when there is no proof whatsoever that the CG was not proper in either airplane, or that the HP varied at all. In regards to the propeller, what was the exact difference in the two propellers? Any at all? They were of the same diameter.
There is a straightforward binary association between two airplanes of the same type and model, when the only difference is a substantial amount of weight. And again, please explain to me the difference between the two propellers.
None of that other crap mattered to the climb rate except the nearly half ton of weight. Somebody just say okay I agree with you and I will go away.
Sorry my use of adjectives offends you. Russians considered the .30s useless on P-39s. US must have considered them useless since no P-38, P-40, P-47, P-51, F4F, F6F, F4U, B-17, B-24, B-25, B-26, A-26, SB2C, TBF had them. The AAF P-39 pilots may have been required to keep them, again I don't know. Wagner did say that they weren't as effective or dependable as .50s. Had the P-39 pilots known how much better their planes would climb without them then they may have removed them. We're only talking about the period between May and November 1942.You said "I just believe that 836lbs of weight will affect climb rate and nobody on here will acknowledge that." Please read (and I mean READ) my post that you quoted. Did I not say "Certainly lower weight will contribute to improved climb performance"? Isn't that acknowledging that weight will affect climb rate? Many others have also made such an acknowledgement.
The problem is you keep ignoring any other factor that may complicate your simplistic perspectives. You also have a penchant for inserting adjectives that reflect your own biases rather than an objective assessment of the situation. One example that I've identified is your habit of calling 30 cal machine guns "useless". I'm still waiting for you to recognize that the OPERATIONAL PILOTS didn't think they were useless.
Now you're introducing a new adjective, assuming that the differences in the propeller were "slight". We don't know that for sure, and so we can't quantify how much impact the different propeller had on the performance deltas between the 2 airframes.
GregP and others are trying to dig into the details of the test reports that you keep citing, but rather than engage in conversation about what cumulative effects might be at play, you keep reverting back to a single topic and issue.
Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for any kind of acknowledgement from you that the operational pilots continued to fly with 30 cals in the wings precisely because they WEREN'T useless.
Sorry my use of adjectives offends you. Russians considered the .30s useless on P-39s. US must have considered them useless since no P-38, P-40, P-47, P-51, F4F, F6F, F4U, B-17, B-24, B-25, B-26, A-26, SB2C, TBF had them. The AAF P-39 pilots may have been required to keep them, again I don't know. Wagner did say that they weren't as effective or dependable as .50s. Had the P-39 pilots known how much better their planes would climb without them then they may have removed them. We're only talking about the period between May and November 1942.
More like a second or two. One time. Let's move on from this, we're talking about 3mph.
Now the British don't know how to run a test?
More powerful engine, smaller wing etc, all things that should make the MkII faster, but still only 328mph. Let's move on from this, the A6M2 was slower than the P-39.
No amount of slightly different propeller blades of the same diameter, slight differences of CG (if there were any) or slight differences of HP (if there were any) will account for 1000fpm of climb. They were the same airplane, same contract, same engine, same airframe, same plane, simply different internal equipment. If you take any airplane and reduce the weight the climb rate will improve. The only thing that will account for 1000fpm of climb is almost half a ton of weight.
By the way, the C model didn't have the nose armor, how did it keep from falling out of the sky?
Splitting hairs again. I'd like to move on from this and concentrate on weight and climb.
As previously pointed out, nobody on the allied side had a correctly set up and correctly operated, fully performing Zero until much later when it was no longer relevant.
They had a good-running Zero for the 1944 Fighter Conference. The Planes of Fame is still flying it, and it STILL runs good.
Hi Ivan1GFP,
Reference post #1193 and the P-3 Orion, just for fun.
I find the prop to be 13.5 feet in diameter or 162 inches. From what I see on the internet, the max T-56 engine speed is 13,800 rpm and the max propeller rpm is 1020. That puts rotation at 106.81 radians per second and the tangential speed at 720.9955 feet per second or 491.6 mph.
Assume it is operating at 105,000 pounds at 20,000 feet and the speed would be 244 KTAS or 280.8 mph forward speed. So, the helical tip velocity would be the square root of 491.6^2 plus 280.8^2, which is 566.15 mph.
The speed of sound at 20,000 feet is 705.757 mph on a standard day, so the propeller tip speed is M.802, which is in the vicinity of VERY GOOD design for turboprop propeller efficiency.
Assuming my numbers for the P-3 are correct, that is.
Hi Ivan,
I am sitting here with the 1944 Fighter Conference Report in front of me, and I see the evaluation of the handling qualities, but the actual performance charts only are shown for the Allied airplanes that we were flying.
However, the Planes of Fame Zero is an AM5 Model 52. The specs say max speed at 19,685 feet was 348 mph. Climb to 19,685 feet was 7 minutes and 1 second, so the initial climb rate was likely around 3,600 fpm, tapering off as you climb. Cruise speed was 230 mph.
Happy Haloween.
Not to put too fine a point on it but the P-40, P-51, B-17, B-25, B-26 and TBF ALL sported .30 caliber guns on early marques and some well into the development cycle.Sorry my use of adjectives offends you. Russians considered the .30s useless on P-39s. US must have considered them useless since no P-38, P-40, P-47, P-51, F4F, F6F, F4U, B-17, B-24, B-25, B-26, A-26, SB2C, TBF had them. The AAF P-39 pilots may have been required to keep them, again I don't know. Wagner did say that they weren't as effective or dependable as .50s. Had the P-39 pilots known how much better their planes would climb without them then they may have removed them. We're only talking about the period between May and November 1942.