Number of Allied Plane losses against Germany in May 1944

[German WWII Archive]

Hey everyone,

I'm currently translating German Newsweek issue No.718 from June 7th, 1944. In it, the voice over claims:

"[...] 1,839 aircraft, including 1,026 four-engine bombers, were destroyed by the heroically attacking German defenses over the Reich territory and over the frontlines in the month of May. With over 10,000 men of irreplaceable flying personnel, our opponents lost a large quantity of most valuable war material".

Does anyone know if this number seems plausible?
German propaganda newsweek tend to be sometimes accurate, but also sometimes inflating numbers, so this could be anywhere from accurate to slightly higher to ridicolously inflated.

As the voice over claims "over Reich territory and over the frontlines", this would include not only bombers, but also fighter and other planes in Italy, but not Normandy, as this was too early to be featured in German newsreels.

Especially the number of 1,026 four engined bomber seems a bit too high for me, but I have little source materials about allied bomber losses, and havent found a good list or monthly loss chart on the Internet yet.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

 

[Snautzer01]

What Allies? All or just Western? Day and/or night?
There is a lot already posted on this here.

 

[German WWII Archive]

What Allies? All or just Western? Day and/or night?
There is a lot already posted on this here.

My apologies, should have worded that better. I meant Western Allies, e.g. British and Americans. And I would assume, as the voice over said, basically all planes. So day/night on all fronts and all over Germany.

I tried to use the search function, but couldn't find anything. If you could link me a threat regarding that, I would appreciate it, thank you very much in advance!

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

The totals run into the What is a loss? question. Whether only missing (what the RAF admitted publicly, thinking the Germans would know most of them anyway) or including losses to all causes, some of which had nothing to do with enemy action. May 1944 (mostly) 4 engine bomber losses,
8th AF 376
15th AF 175
Bomber Command 289, all types but mostly 4 engined, 274 MIA

Total 840, plus a small number lost by the RAF in the Mediterranean. The USSR had few operational 4 engined types in May 1944.

Given the inevitable over claiming involved it is quite possible the 1,026 heavies is Luftwaffe and flak claims alone, no addition by the propaganda people, if the text is saying for both day and night raids.

You want the 1945 Statistical Digest tables 159 and 160, USAF STATISTICS

The Strategic Air Offensive Against Germany 1939-1945 Volume 4 (or IV) by Sir Charles Webster and Noble Frankland, Appendix 40. Seems to be offered as a download by some sites.

The USAAF reports losing 1,148 aircraft on combat missions to all causes in May 1944. RAF Fighter Command something like 120 losses to all causes, add those of Bomber Command and you end up around 1,560, deduct non combat and add RAF Mediterranean losses and over claiming.

 

[German WWII Archive]

The totals run into the What is a loss? question. Whether only missing (what the RAF admitted publicly, thinking the Germans would know most of them anyway) or including losses to all causes, some of which had nothing to do with enemy action. May 1944 (mostly) 4 engine bomber losses,
8th AF 376
15th AF 175
Bomber Command 289, all types but mostly 4 engined, 274 MIA

Total 840, plus a small number lost by the RAF in the Mediterranean. The USSR had few operational 4 engined types in May 1944.

Given the inevitable over claiming involved it is quite possible the 1,026 heavies is Luftwaffe and flak claims alone, no addition by the propaganda people, if the text is saying for both day and night raids.

You want the 1945 Statistical Digest tables 159 and 160, USAF STATISTICS

The Strategic Air Offensive Against Germany 1939-1945 Volume 4 (or IV) by Sir Charles Webster and Noble Frankland, Appendix 40. Seems to be offered as a download by some sites.

The USAAF reports losing 1,148 aircraft on combat missions to all causes in May 1944. RAF Fighter Command something like 120 losses to all causes, add those of Bomber Command and you end up around 1,560, deduct non combat and add RAF Mediterranean losses and over claiming.

Thank you for this very detailed answer.

It seems that the numbers are probably just taken straight from Wehrmacht reports and not changed then, and they are closer to reality than I thought they would be.

Enemy loss numbers from German Newsweeks vary widely, some are extremely off (a German Newsweek from January 1945 claimed the Americans lost 1600 tanks in the Ardennes region, in reality the number was closer to 700), while some, like this, seems closer to reality.

Anyway, thank you again for the detailed answer and the sources you provided, I appreciate it!

 

[Snautzer01]

lost 1600 tanks in the Ardennes region

What is a loss. Tank knocked out, towed back, repaired back in the line. Is that a loss? The panzerfaust guy would report it as killed.

 

[German WWII Archive]

What is a loss. Tank knocked out, towed back, repaired back in the line. Is that a loss? The panzerfaust guy would report it as killed.

True, there are different ways of counting this. But also German propaganda did some tricks to increase the kill numbers, e.g. counting all armored vehicles, including half-tracks, as tanks, which is something that happend to Wittmann btw.

Anyway, going back to the topic, this is exactly why I asked it and thankfully Geoffrey gave me a very detailed answer

 

[Snautzer01]

German losses/wins to give a bit of context May By Day

Battle over the Reich The Strategic Air Offensive Over Germany 1943-45 vol.2 pg 219 , Price

 

[Snautzer01]

over Holland this are recorded crashes: 89

 

[33k in the air]

According to the Army Air Forces Statistical Digest — World War II, the USAAF losses:

Number of airplane losses on combat missions in the ETO for May 1944
376 heavy bombers (211 to enemy aircraft, 122 to anti-aircraft, 43 to other)
045 medium bombers (10 to enemy aircraft, 28 to anti-aircraft, 7 to other)
340 fighters (176 to enemy fighters, 98 to anti-aircraft, 66 to other)

Number of airplane losses on combat missions in the MTO for May 1944
175 heavy bombers (50 to enemy aircraft, 107 to anti-aircraft, 18 to other)
032 medium bombers (0 to enemy aircraft, 23 to anti-aircraft, 9 to other)
180 fighters (52 to enemy fighters, 59 to anti-aircraft, 69 to other)

 

[Barrett]

Hey everyone,

I'm currently translating German Newsweek issue No.718 from June 7th, 1944. In it, the voice over claims:

"[...] 1,839 aircraft, including 1,026 four-engine bombers, were destroyed by the heroically attacking German defenses over the Reich territory and over the frontlines in the month of May. With over 10,000 men of irreplaceable flying personnel, our opponents lost a large quantity of most valuable war material".

Does anyone know if this number seems plausible?
German propaganda newsweek tend to be sometimes accurate, but also sometimes inflating numbers, so this could be anywhere from accurate to slightly higher to ridicolously inflated.

As the voice over claims "over Reich territory and over the frontlines", this would include not only bombers, but also fighter and other planes in Italy, but not Normandy, as this was too early to be featured in German newsreels.

Especially the number of 1,026 four engined bomber seems a bit too high for me, but I have little source materials about allied bomber losses, and havent found a good list or monthly loss chart on the Internet yet.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

The AAF Statistical Digest published in 1946 (?) covered the world in enormous detail including aircrew and aircraft losses: training, operational combat, by theater/area by month/year etc. Used to be online.

 

[GregP]

Still is: link: Army Air Forces Statistical Digest, 1946. First Annual Number

Cheers.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

The Ardennes offensive began on 16 December 1944, a question would be what time period the German report was covering.

First Army
13-20 Dec 1944 M4 (75mm) Loss 35, M4 (76mm) Loss 41, M5 Loss 7, M24 Loss 0, M4 (105mm) Loss 1
21-28 Dec 1944 M4 (75mm) Loss 165, M4 (76mm) Loss 40, M5 Loss 65, M24 Loss 2, M4 (105mm) Loss 19
29 Dec 1944-5 Jan 1945 M4 (75mm) Loss 31, M4 (76mm) Loss 12, M5 Loss 4, M24 Loss 2, M4 (105mm) Loss 0
6-12 Jan 1945 M4 (75mm) Loss 13, M4 (76mm) Loss 0, M5 Loss 4, M24 Loss 2, M4 (105mm) Loss 0

Third Army
17-24 Dec 1944 M4 (75mm) Loss 3, M4 (76mm) Loss 29, M5 Loss 8, M4 (105mm) Loss 1
25 Dec 1944-1 Jan 1945 M4 (75mm) Loss 22, M4 (76mm) Loss 78, M5 Loss 12, M4 (105mm) Loss 2
2-5 Jan 1945 M4 (75mm) Loss 19, M4 (76mm) Loss 11, M5 Loss 1, M4 (105mm) Loss 0
6-12 Jan 1945 M4 (75mm) Loss 28, M4 (76mm) Loss 32, M5 Loss 16, M4 (105mm) Loss 0

ETO (note 105 M7 105mm SP Howitzers reported lost 20 Nov to 20 Dec 44, along with 495 M4 75mm/76mm). 20 Dec 44-20 Jan 45 Losses
585 M4 75mm & 76mm Medium Tanks
29 M4 105mm Assault Guns
0 M7 105mm SP Howitzers
208 M5, M3, M24 series Light Tanks
200 M8 Armored Cars
46 M8 75mm Assault Guns
69 M10 3" SP Tank Destroyers
27 M18 76mm SP Tank Destroyers
26 M36 90mm SP Tank Destroyers

 

[German WWII Archive]

Still is: link: Army Air Forces Statistical Digest, 1946. First Annual Number

Cheers.

Thank you very much, this will probably be very useful for me. Thanks for posting!

 

[fubar57]

You could also search through this large section of PDFs.... Jan J. Safarik: Aces; Germany - Wartime Aerial Victory Credits

 

[GregP]

Thank you very much, this will probably be very useful for me. Thanks for posting!

Keep in mind, that is only the USAAF, not the USN/USMC.

Here is the USN / USMC Air Combat Statistics World War Two:

https://www.history.navy.mil/conten...s/naval-aviation/aviation-monographs/nasc.pdf

Between the two of them it isn't bad when discussing the U.S.A. .

Now, if we only had the same for the UK, Germany, Japan, Italy, and the USSR, we might have something to talk about and compare!

I have a file of German claims and a file of WWII aerial victory counts from many countries, but that isn't exactly operations victory and loss data like the two above.

 

[Jabberwocky]

The USAAF reports losing 1,148 aircraft on combat missions to all causes in May 1944. RAF Fighter Command something like 120 losses to all causes, add those of Bomber Command and you end up around 1,560, deduct non combat and add RAF Mediterranean losses and over claiming.

Foreman - from part 4 of Fighter Command War Diaries - makes it 152 RAF fighter losses for May-1944, including 9 Mosquitos from 100 Group and three Seafires from the FAA.

 

[drgondog]

Keep in mind, that is only the USAAF, not the USN/USMC.

Here is the USN / USMC Air Combat Statistics World War Two:

https://www.history.navy.mil/conten...s/naval-aviation/aviation-monographs/nasc.pdf

Between the two of them it isn't bad when discussing the U.S.A. .

Now, if we only had the same for the UK, Germany, Japan, Italy, and the USSR, we might have something to talk about and compare!

I have a file of German claims and a file of WWII aerial victory counts from many countries, but that isn't exactly operations victory and loss data like the two above.

Hi Greg - for you and Barrett Tillman

The USAF Study 85 was very specific about criteria for aerial victory credit awards. Most conspicuous was 'destruction calim shall be accompanied by either combat film or attested witness report." A higher command authority than the squadron/group was inserted for review and awards.

What was comparable USN/USMC written process? How about Carrier ops?

 

[Engineman]

German losses/wins to give a bit of context May By Day

Battle over the Reich The Strategic Air Offensive Over Germany 1943-45 vol.2 pg 219 , Price

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Hi,
In reply #8.
I guess that the word "DAVENTRY" in the third block, right hand end, is a computer cock-up? Daventry is a place in UK. I think it should say "Damaged"?

Eng

 

[Snautzer01]

Hi,
In reply #8.
I guess that the word "DAVENTRY" in the third block, right hand end, is a computer cock-up? Daventry is a place in UK. I think it should say "Damaged"?

Eng

I googled myself silly for daventry when posted this. Could not find something that fits. But i agree i think it must be read damaged.