GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
That was the Soviet mindset, as they knew the U.S. defense system was accurate and effective, so they gambled on a "bum rush" in the chance that one or more missiles may get through.
Russia intervenes in Syria
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
Interesting read! 
Now it gets worse, Turkey shot down a Russian aircraft... Someone should tell the Turks they have to decide which side they are on.
fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
They are against the Kurds and are quite happy to see IS killing them.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Turkey has warned the Russians several times that overflight of their airpace will not be tolerated.
The last time the Russians did it, Turkey warned that they will down the next Russian plane.
The Russians have been bombing groups which are supported by Turkey and are fighting the Assad regime, supported by Russia, in that region. That's why the Russian jet was shot down, and that's why it looks like the crew were subsequently killed, by said groups.
Whether or not the Russian jet was indeed in Turkish air space is yet to be confirmed.
Steve
Whether or not the Russian jet was indeed in Turkish air space is yet to be confirmed.
Steve
This may all be true, but if you've got a barrel of gunpowder, the last thing you want to do is throwing in a burning fuse. Whether the Russians were in Turkish airspace can be discussed, but it has been dangerously close to the border as the aircraft landed in Syrian territory, only 4 km from the Turkish border. It is stupid of the Russians to provoke the Turks and just as stupid of the Turks to be provoked. The Turks and the Russians are playing a game in which only everybody will loose. I just hope that we as NATO will not be called for help in this stupidity. While everybody is screaming that IsIs should be bombed and destroyed, they still haven't decided if IsIs is really the enemy or that they should try to get their own in this conflict. The killing of the pilots is another stupid deed. Nobody gains anything and will only make the situation worse.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
I agree, Marcel...the Russians have been harassing U.S. aircraft in that region and the U.S. ignores them.
The Turks, on the otherhand are known to be reactionary and it doesn't take much provocation to get them to jump.
The Turks, on the otherhand are known to be reactionary and it doesn't take much provocation to get them to jump.
The NATO line, unsurprisingly, is that the Russian jet was in Turkish/NATO air space. To paraphrase Mandy Rice-Davies' response to a question in a famous trial/scandal here, many years ago, 'they would say that wouldn't they.'
Not everyone is batting for the same team here. The Russians were bombing a group supported by the Turks who are just as keen to get rid of Assad as the Russians are to maintain his regime. The russians are not just bombing Daesh, they are bombing anyone opposed to Assad, including groups supported by 'the west'.
The Russian and some western air forces are bombing Syria, but they have quite different objectives.
Cheers
Steve
Not everyone is batting for the same team here. The Russians were bombing a group supported by the Turks who are just as keen to get rid of Assad as the Russians are to maintain his regime. The russians are not just bombing Daesh, they are bombing anyone opposed to Assad, including groups supported by 'the west'.
The Russian and some western air forces are bombing Syria, but they have quite different objectives.
Cheers
Steve
Last edited:
parsifal
Colonel
It would be easier if a caliphate was established, then nuke the place out of history. I think we should dust off the old massive retaliation responses of the cold war. step on my toes, ill blow your head off.
Turkey is testing this, i hope we support them as we should instead of trying to introduce some form of moral code to what might happen or not happen. thats what starts real wars and gets people killed.
Turkey is testing this, i hope we support them as we should instead of trying to introduce some form of moral code to what might happen or not happen. thats what starts real wars and gets people killed.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
Boy, this sounds like the beginning of a Tom Clancy novel. Turks shoot down Russian plane (done), Russia deploys missile cruiser Moskva to Syria (done), Moskva downs Turkish F-16 over Turkey with a S-300PMU Favorite ship-to-air missile (not yet), NATO activated, Turkey sinks Moskva with barrage of Popeye air-to-surface missiles from F4E-2020 Terminator aircraft, Russia mobilizes forces and moves into Georgia, all hell breaks loose ......
Last edited:
buffnut453
Captain
Hope you haven't been reading an early draft of the script...your line of thought sounds way too plausible, and hence scary.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
You forgot the build up of Russian forces along the Ukranian border as well as forces along the Baltic frontier...
I honestly wouldn't put it past Putin to sacrifice a Su-34 in order to get the ball rolling. He knows full well that hazing U.S. aircraft over Syria wouldn't get anything but warnings and finger waving, but the Turks are predictable and easy to provoke.
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
Putin needs to divert the Russian people's attention from the economy. 40 dollars a barrel for oil must be suffocating the Russian economy. Think of Argentina and Admiral Jorge Anaya.
Article IV today and I do not think Article V is in the works as of yet but if we have a couple of more dominoes fall it could happen.Soviets claim surface to air strike coming from Syria from troops supported by Turkey who claim responsibility.The SU24 was not over much of Turkey's airspace even according to their own reports at most 10-15seconds if just cruising.The Soviets have hit alot of oil trucks from ISIS (500+) which is cheap oil for Turkey in this region run by Turkmen in Syria who reportedly requested surface to air missiles of late because of Russia's harassment.The characters involved in this is getting complicated as to who wants what and for what those reasons might be.Then we have China flexing it's muscles in the Pacific who now claim the Spratley Islands http://ww2aircraft.net/forum/modern/spratley-islands-38916.html
No Parsifal, wars don't start by moral code, war starts by aggression and stupidity.
parsifal
Colonel
Of course there needs to be a degree of rational measured response to the problems in front of us. But it seems to me that our ideas on limited war, controlled responses and other diplomatic niceties are being ignored by our opponents. We set parameters, measured, known responses to a given situation. Our opponents have simply ignored those parameters and applied a code of conduct totally foreign to what we understand as rational behaviour. The only way you can meet that is to fight the fight these people don't think we will or can, expand the parameters of the limited war to a point where the pain we inflict exceeds or is above the pain that can be inflicted on us.
The wars of the 20th century were not fought for a wide variety of reasons. Winning wars did not involve consideration of the moral aspects of a war. a war is an inherently ammoral exercise.
The wars of the 20th century were not fought for a wide variety of reasons. Winning wars did not involve consideration of the moral aspects of a war. a war is an inherently ammoral exercise.
The Turks themselves say that the Russian jets, though they also claim that they were of 'unknown nationality' at the time, 'violated Turkish national airspace to a depth of 1.36 miles and 1.15 miles in length for 17 seconds from 9:24:05 local time'. They also claim that ten warnings were issued in the previous five minutes as the aircraft approached.
The Russians say that their radar at the Hmeymim air base shows that it was the Turkish aircraft that entered Syrian air space to shoot down their aircraft, but then they would say that wouldn't they.
Cheers
Steve
The Russians say that their radar at the Hmeymim air base shows that it was the Turkish aircraft that entered Syrian air space to shoot down their aircraft, but then they would say that wouldn't they.
Cheers
Steve
I think everything depends on what you define as 'our opponents'. If Russia is amongst those, then it is relevant to this incident. If isis is our opponent then this incident between Turkey and Russia is contraproductive and dangerous. So the reaction should be one that takes into account what our goal is. Do we want to fight Russia or do we want to wipe isis from the earth. It is clear that both Russia and Turkey have not made up their mind yet what they want. If our goal is to wipe isis from the earth then taking sides here is deviating us from our goal.
